Should we teach others to rebel against standards?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Apostolic Church members!

Flee from that man Jesus! We dont care what anyone preaches! You cant run with men like that! We know by the "facial hair"...full beard on his face we DONT WANT HIM hanging around with our people!

And those 12 apostles? Jewish men called by Christ to be with him. Beware! Just because your Pastor tells you they are OK we know that Jewish men WORE BEARDS! Flee from them to save your souls from Hell!

Mike, isn't your beard falling out?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Mike, isn't your beard falling out?

I'm glad we can joke about this because I do love Bro Michael.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

No, you need to find another medium to deal with your religious post traumatic stress disorder. Because this doesn't seem to be working out for you. You are a big baby. You and Mike want to grow beards knock yourselves out. Just stop whining about it.

I'm not whining. I'm just pointing out the truth.

- Good, Holy Ghost filled men are made second class citizens in most Apostolic churches merely because they wear a beard.
- Some churches are so extreme, they've labeled any man with a beard rebellious, prideful, and demon possessed causing them to leave, and some to fall away disillusioned.
- There is absolutely no Scripture for such a position.

Now, only a woefully ignorant buffoon or a liar would deny that the above is true. I'll let you pick which one you are.

The country is going to Hell in a hand basket... and the white washed sepulchers of our day don't care one bit about a stupid standard about facial hair that only stands to serve as a stumbling block for men seeking Christ. And the standard isn't even in the Bible.

What if America is as lost as it is... because we glorified the traditions of man that shut people out more than the Word of God that draws them in???

[Michael The Disciple]

What is an MWB?

[Tithesmeister]

I have been studying Romans for some time. I have found it to be rich in establishing doctrine for our churches. I'd like to post the fourteenth chapter and sprinkle my interpretation in among the verses, because I think it is so relevant to this subject and many others that are similar.



Rom.14
[1] Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

Doubtful disputations are things that are not clear enough in scripture to be beyond debate. Oneness of God, the plan of salvation, being justified by faith in the blood of Jesus, believing Jesus was God robed in flesh, the virgin birth, and the belief that the Bible is the inspired word of God, are not doubtful disputations. Tithing, wearing jewelry, whether or not women may trim their hair, and whether men should, or should not wear beards are a few examples of doubtful disputations.


[2] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Here we have examples of the doubtful disputations that were prevalent in the day that Paul wrote to the church of Rome. We typically don't debate whather we are more or less holy for eating only vegetables. Today we have a whole 'nother list of doubtful disputations.

[3] Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Or perhaps, let not him that weareth not a beard, despise him that weareth a beard?

[4] Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Really! Who art thou that judgeth another man's servant. Does the Lord Jesus despise his wearing a beard? He who also wore a beard? Probably not.


[5] One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Ahhh! Let he that weareth the beard be totally convinced in his own mind. And he that is clean-shaven? Likewise, he should be totally convinced. And let both he who wears a beard and he who is clean-shaven be so as unto the Lord.

[6] He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
[7] For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
[8] For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
[9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
[10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Jesus is our righteous judge. It is not the pastor or the deacon board. Remember not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought.

[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
[13] Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

It does seem to me that many of these standards that are extra-biblical, qualify for stumblingblocks to our brethren. I do not wear a beard, but I realize that the beard is certainly a possible stumblingblock for many beard-wearing brethren. If this does not qualify for a stumblingblock, pray tell, what does? Yet we throw it into the generic sea of landmarks? Erecting a false landmark has the same consequences under law, if not worse, than moving an existing landmark.

[14] I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you believe it is a sin to wear a beard, then by all means shave three times a day if necessary. If you believe that wearing a beard is a manly thing to do, and God is pleased with it, then by all means wear a beard. It is not a salvation issue according to the Bible. We should also remember that there is liberty in Christ. On the other hand we should also remember that the law is compared to bondage. If we are truly in Christ we should always enjoy the liberty that is the hallmark of His people. Legalism is bondage, is walking in the flesh, liberty is in Christ, equals walking in the Spirit. If we hane not the Spirit, we are none of His.


[15] But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
[16] Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
[17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The kingdom of God is not reduced to wearing a beard, or being clean-shaven.

[18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
[19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
[20] For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
[21] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
[22] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
[23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

In the comparison that I have drawn here, the eating of meat would be replaced with the wearing of a beard. There were those in Paul's time that condemned their brother for eating meat. Today there are those who would condemn their brother for wearing a beard. Brother Jonathan Alvear's message is proof that it is not just a feeling, but is a feeling that is based in reality. For my own position, I will be happy to worship with anyone who is sincere about following and worshiping Jesus. If he has a beard, that has no effect on his testimony in my eyes. If he is clean-shaven, I still will be glad to worship with him. I will probably be clean-shaven myself, I hope no-one will hold that against me.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

What is an MWB?

I assume it means, men with beards.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by n david

Exactly. Some folk just want to nit pick at every little thing. If it isn't beards, it's eschatology. Or tithing. Or hair covering vs uncut. Or something else.

So truth dont matter? Just believe the "man of God"! A shocking fact from my first Apostolic Church was they did not encourage Bible study by the members, one Evangelist specifically calling then "the laity".

[n david]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So truth dont matter?

Who's truth?

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

A shocking fact from my first Apostolic Church was they did not encourage Bible study by the members, one Evangelist specifically calling then "the laity".

First, you and Aquila have the best stories. Seriously. And I'm sure what you both claim is 100% accurate and not hyperbole or exaggerated or tainted by any kind of bias, right? "They did not encourage Bible study by the members..." What church was this - name, city and state?

"Laity definition: the body of religious worshipers, as distinguished from the clergy."

"Laity: In religious organizations, the laity consists of all members who are not members of the clergy, usually including any non-ordained members of religious institutes"

Well my goodness! It's a wonder any of those poor people survived being called that awful word!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Who's truth?

Michael, I think that's a resounding, "no", to your question. Biblical truth clearly doesn't matter to these men.

Unless of course, they wish to correct us and show Scripture for their position.

[Michael The Disciple]

First, you and Aquila have the best stories. Seriously. And I'm sure what you both claim is 100% accurate and not hyperbole or exaggerated or tainted by any kind of bias, right? "They did not encourage Bible study by the members..." What church was this - name, city and state?

I fear God. I will not make up lies to gain someone listening to me.

The Church was The Apostolic Gospel Church in Springfield Ohio. The Evangelist who called the Church members "the laity" was Bro. Pollard who was from around the Athens Ohio area. He preached against beards and downplayed saints studying for themselves because we were to listen to the man of God. For all I know he may still be alive and active in ministry. I was an Elder in this Church when this happened in 1982.