Holiness vs. Legalism

[SwordSainT]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I fell I must resopond to this, it just came at me the wrong way. Mostly because Ihave been in the ministry over 40 years. I have seen all types of teachings in the church, from pastors that were authoritatian, to pastors that most would call liberal. What gets me is that the spirit of God was manifest in all these meetings.

I see where your coming from so dont get me wrong - I am definitely not liberal in my walk but at the same time I do not see the need to express my personal convictions of holiness as much as live what i know if holy. When we talk about "principles" of any kind. Those principles are most often gained by the example steered by the influencers in ones life.

A Pastor can only preach and hammer in standards so much but eventually the church must show the example of what it believes. It comes by preaching of the word of example of the saints. When i got saved i didnt need someone to sit down with me and explain to me all the things i needed to get rid of. I simply prayed and sought God and those things were revealed to me in time.
When i came to my Pastor asking to be used in ministry, others were brought to my attention that I needed to adhere to.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by SwordSainT

I see where your coming from so dont get me wrong - I am definitely not liberal in my walk but at the same time I do not see the need to express my personal convictions of holiness as much as live what i know if holy. When we talk about "principles" of any kind. Those principles are most often gained by the example steered by the influencers in ones life.

A Pastor can only preach and hammer in standards so much but eventually the church must show the example of what it believes. It comes by preaching of the word of example of the saints. When i got saved i didnt need someone to sit down with me and explain to me all the things i needed to get rid of. I simply prayed and sought God and those things were revealed to me in time.
When i came to my Pastor asking to be used in ministry, others were brought to my attention that I needed to adhere to.

You are making my point, whether you know it or not. It should not be the things we must give up as much as the things we gain when we come into the kingdom of God. As you said, "you did not have to have some one explain all the things you needed to get rid of" and then there were even more things you needed to get rid of when you wanted to be used in ministry, that were brought to your attention by your pastor. This is legalism whether we want to admit it or not.

Paul states in two places, "all things are lawful" it is not so much in what we do that is sin, it is how and why we so something that makes it sin. I will go as far as to say I can have a beer at the end of the day and not sin, unless it offends another brother. I use that as an example because it drives home my meaning far better than to say "I can eat food offered to an idol".

We have made everything sin, forgeting God gave all things for our enjoyment.

Just the very fact that we deem it neccesary to discuse holiness vs. legalism, points to the fact we still have not gotten what holiness is. Meaning we still think it has something to do with clothes, whether we can wear a beard, whether a women can cut her hair. When none of this things have anything to do with being holy.

Holiness is not something we put on like a shirt and tie. As Peter writes, one of the most misused passages of scripture by legalistic teachers. Our holiness is not the putting on of apparel, but the hidden man of the heart. I Peter 3. Many want to say this passage teaches we are not to put on those things listed by Peter. But the true reading of this passage is that we can put on those things, but we are not to try and show our holiness by putting on things, but rather let the true spirit of God be seen in our whole lives. This is true holiness.

I will say this about ministry, a true minister will gain those that follow them because of the spirit about them, not because they have adhered to some set of guide lines in order to become a minister. I have experiance this in my own personal life. A true minister is one that ministers to others period. All others are wolves and hirelings.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

You are making my point, whether you know it or not. It should not be the things we must give up as much as the things we gain when we come into the kingdom of God. As you said, "you did not have to have some one explain all the things you needed to get rid of" and then there were even more things you needed to get rid of when you wanted to be used in ministry, that were brought to your attention by your pastor. This is legalism whether we want to admit it or not.

Paul states in two places, "all things are lawful" it is not so much in what we do that is sin, it is how and why we so something that makes it sin. I will go as far as to say I can have a beer at the end of the day and not sin, unless it offends another brother. I use that as an example because it drives home my meaning far better than to say "I can eat food offered to an idol".

We have made everything sin, forgeting God gave all things for our enjoyment.

Just the very fact that we deem it neccesary to discuse holiness vs. legalism, points to the fact we still have not gotten what holiness is. Meaning we still think it has something to do with clothes, whether we can wear a beard, whether a women can cut her hair. When none of this things have anything to do with being holy.

Holiness is not something we put on like a shirt and tie. As Peter writes, one of the most misused passages of scripture by legalistic teachers. Our holiness is not the putting on of apparel, but the hidden man of the heart. I Peter 3. Many want to say this passage teaches we are not to put on those things listed by Peter. But the true reading of this passage is that we can put on those things, but we are not to try and show our holiness by putting on things, but rather let the true spirit of God be seen in our whole lives. This is true holiness.

I will say this about ministry, a true minister will gain those that follow them because of the spirit about them, not because they have adhered to some set of guide lines in order to become a minister. I have experiance this in my own personal life. A true minister is one that ministers to others period. All others are wolves and hirelings.

Sin is transgression of the law. Sometimes it takes a brother to point out something to us. This is not legalism.

Legalism is attempting to be justified in the sight of God by our own works. It is certainly not being given advice and direction by an elder.

A true minister is NOT 'someone who ministers to others period.' A true minister is one who ministers to others IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE WORD OF GOD, period.

The bible contains EXPLICIT qualifications for 'ministers' (aka DEACONS) and elders (aka BISHOPS). That is not legalism. That is Gospel.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Sin is transgression of the law. Sometimes it takes a brother to point out something to us. This is not legalism.

Legalism is attempting to be justified in the sight of God by our own works. It is certainly not being given advice and direction by an elder.

A true minister is NOT 'someone who ministers to others period.' A true minister is one who ministers to others IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE WORD OF GOD, period.

The bible contains EXPLICIT qualifications for 'ministers' (aka DEACONS) and elders (aka BISHOPS). That is not legalism. That is Gospel.

Esaias
"sin is transgression of the law", who's law? Your law, mans law? It it takes a brother to point out something to us, than I say it is a man made law. That is legalism.

Herein is the problem with so many religions, the stitching together of passages out of context, to teach man made doctrines. The spacific qualifications given in I Tim. 1, and Titus 1, are for the Office of a Bishop, not the gifts of the ministry as listed by Paul in Ephesians 4. The gifts listed by Paul in Ephesians, were given to equip the saints, (each and every one of us) that we can do the work of ministry, and to edify the church.

A Bishop on the other hand was an office of superintendent, to perfom the administrative duties of the church.
Nowhere in all scripture does God give any instruction describing the duties that we have perscribed to the ones we call bishops or pastors.

The twisting of Hebrews 13:17, is not that passage either. For the word "obey" in that passage, means, "by pursuasion".

What gets me, is for the three and a half years Christ minstered, not once did he demand authority be given him. Neither did he ever touch of outward apperal as holiness. As a matter of fact he upbraided the religous leader for that very thing. The painting of the out side of the vessal to look holy. Yet that is what this whole thread is all about. The Painting of the outside of the vessal and calling it holiness.

We have the example of Jesus to show us what ministry is, further we have the example of the apostles in the early church to give us examples of what ministry is. And yet we still refuse to acknowledge what is clear in their example.

We continue to add rule after rule to the list of what we deem to be sin, just as the religious leaders of Christ day had done thinking we have obtained eternal life through obediance to these, I say we have missed the whole good news of the kingdom of God. That is personal relationship with God in this life.

We can talk about Covenants, Yes God made a Covenant with man, He would give life to the individual that had faith in him. Our part is to Love God, with all our heart soul and mind, and to love our neighbor as our self. Where with we fulfill the the commandment of God.

Pray tell me how obediance to man made list of do's and don'ts fulfills loving your neighbor as yourself.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Esaias
"sin is transgression of the law", who's law? Your law, mans law?

God's law.

It it takes a brother to point out something to us, than I say it is a man made law. That is legalism.

Nonsense, and neither is it legalism. Sometimes it takes a brother pointing out to us that we are being arrogant, haughty, spiteful, mean, etc. Paul did exactly that numerous times in his epistles. Was he being a legalist? No, he simply pointed out where his fellow brethren were violating the commands of God.

Pray tell me how obediance to man made list of do's and don'ts fulfills loving your neighbor as yourself.

It doesn't. Obedience to the commandments of God however is the expression of love to God and our neighbor.