PCI view as the most vocal is laughable. You have described the Water/Spirit folks pretty well. I could, though I won't, quote names of well known ministers still actively involved in the UPC, one teaches at UGST. That assured me, when I was thinking of leaving the UPC, that just because those who hold the more liberal view are not vocal they were out there in numbers. They would express their views in private but wouldn't dare in public because of the response from those that are hard line. It was the loud mouth no mercy types that actively set about telling tales and spreading rumors demanding the resignation of LY while never once talking to him personally.
You missed the point of what I was saying.....I did not say PCI was the most vocal, I am not speaking of those still currently "in" the organization, I am referring to those who have left and a few within who will at every chance tear down and try to completely annul anyone's belief in standards, and other doctrinal issues. Just read through this forum, and any time the subject comes up there are plenty of people who will do everything they can to encourage people to walk away from standards, and "manmade" rules, and any other doctrinal variance that they see different. Why not leave them alone and let them serve God as they see it or have been taught? If it doesn't matter and we'll all go to heaven anyway.....why do you and others feel the need to enlighten others that they don't need to believe whatever they have been taught or come to understand on their own?
This is the point that I am making.......you say that the hardliners are the culprits.....I tend to agree.....I believe in being conservative but not caustic.....I do not believe we have to be mean and hateful to stand for what we believe.....and have lived my life to this point trying to have honest dialogue with people of opposing views without condemning them. But what you and many others charge the "hardliners" of doing....is being done from the other side of the aisle as well. Two wrongs do not make a right.
I agree totally! The problem is that (as I see it) there is revisionism on both sides of the aisle. The same crowd that shout from the mountaintops that we should maintain the spirit of the merger and we should allow for diversity in the body and unite on what we have in common while minimizing our differences.....are the ones who are the most vocal to rail against standards and ANY doctrinal view different than their own. If they really desired the "spirit of the merger" they would keep their dissenting views to themselves and allow everyone to believe what they feel is right. But they are no different than the ones they charge with being divisive. They have become judgmental and mean spirited against those that they charge with the same. They claim freedom.....but they are bound by the bitterness and hatred for the doctrine/group they have come out of.
I am not UPCI so what happened or happens there does not affect me, however it does show me that both sides have issues.
Apparently some in the UPCI would like to rewrite history, and that is totally dishonest, unbecoming of a Christian at all.
on the other hand some who left the UPCI were either forced out or left on their own and apparently are still bitter over the whole issue.
I see plenty of fault in both sides with neither side willing to be humble and repent of their attitude.
The UPCI has or had two wings the liberal side and the conservative side, it seems that eventually the conservative side won the upper hand and decided to purge the organization of those who would not agree with them; for that they created the Affirmative statement (A horrible idiotic idea) that strained and eventually split the organization. If the continual hemorrhage of the UPCI keeps up eventually the UPCI itself might die out; will the last person leaving the UPCI headquarters please turn off the lights.
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**Original Matthew 28:19 Restored**
I agree totally! The problem is that (as I see it) there is revisionism on both sides of the aisle. The same crowd that shout from the mountaintops that we should maintain the spirit of the merger and we should allow for diversity in the body and unite on what we have in common while minimizing our differences.....are the ones who are the most vocal to rail against standards and ANY doctrinal view different than their own. If they really desired the "spirit of the merger" they would keep their dissenting views to themselves and allow everyone to believe what they feel is right. But they are no different than the ones they charge with being divisive. They have become judgmental and mean spirited against those that they charge with the same. They claim freedom.....but they are bound by the bitterness and hatred for the doctrine/group they have come out of.
I can agree with you in premise.
__________________
People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
Any questioning of Loren Yadon's story of being congratulated is simply and totally idiotic. You can hear Dan Segraves, head of the college, constantly in the background enthusiastically backing him up. There are also a few times where the voice of Kenneth Haney can distinctly be heard.
It is what it is......he was heralded as a great voice for the time by KFH and then fired by him, and not even in person. You just can't re-write this history. It's etched in stone.
__________________ Old Paths II is....not sharing an IP address with any other user. You can put the question about him being another poster to rest. He's just OPII. All by himself. He's not a fake, he's an original. ~The Mrs
Last edited by OldPathsII; 09-16-2013 at 10:45 AM.
You missed the point of what I was saying.....I did not say PCI was the most vocal, I am not speaking of those still currently "in" the organization, I am referring to those who have left and a few within who will at every chance tear down and try to completely annul anyone's belief in standards, and other doctrinal issues. Just read through this forum, and any time the subject comes up there are plenty of people who will do everything they can to encourage people to walk away from standards, and "manmade" rules, and any other doctrinal variance that they see different. Why not leave them alone and let them serve God as they see it or have been taught? If it doesn't matter and we'll all go to heaven anyway.....why do you and others feel the need to enlighten others that they don't need to believe whatever they have been taught or come to understand on their own?
This is the point that I am making.......you say that the hardliners are the culprits.....I tend to agree.....I believe in being conservative but not caustic.....I do not believe we have to be mean and hateful to stand for what we believe.....and have lived my life to this point trying to have honest dialogue with people of opposing views without condemning them. But what you and many others charge the "hardliners" of doing....is being done from the other side of the aisle as well. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Why not leave them alone to serve God as they have been taught, you say.
Hmmm. So now it comes back to the point where some pastor somewhere taught it and it must be respected for all times as a solid Biblical mandate. One of the things LY encouraged in the sermon was open dialogue and reexamination of passages that we may have misinterpreted. To put this in context five faculty members were at, or near the end of, their studies at Western Theological. This had to cause them as a group and individuals to reexamine things.
The hard liners could not allow for such a thing to happen. Open dialogue and reexamine what I have taught, it will show I am not perfect and correct on everything. This we cannot allow.
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"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow." ~Aesop
One can like or dislike the sermon, that's up to one's tastes and/or opinions. But the history is established and can't be re-written. You can worship the ground Kenneth Haney walked on if you like, but he fired Loren Yadon in a political move, pure and simple. You wanna debate the points of the sermon? Break a leg. You wanna argue over whether or not it was a political firing? Go talk to a fence post because it has an IQ you can relate to.
Loren's wife was KFH's personal secretary.
Results:
Loren Yadon.....ministry and life destroyed.
Kenneth Haney.....General Superintendent.
And I liked Kenneth Haney and have no ax to grind with him. Wanna hear someone brag on someone? I'll talk about K. Haney. But it is what it is.
__________________ Old Paths II is....not sharing an IP address with any other user. You can put the question about him being another poster to rest. He's just OPII. All by himself. He's not a fake, he's an original. ~The Mrs
Anyone really believe the absurd notions revisionism happened on both sides? There was a major rewrite of UPCI history in the 1990's spearheaded by men including the current UPCI pope. The Westburg Resolution is a document that could have come from the Third Reich. The spirit of unity was violated by hardliners insisting on rules and regulations over God's Word.
The only thing uniting the two groups was immersion in Jesus name. You cannot
They didn't let wardrobe and jewelry stand in the way of unity.
The facts do not support revisionist history on both sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bishoph
I agree totally! The problem is that (as I see it) there is revisionism on both sides of the aisle. The same crowd that shout from the mountaintops that we should maintain the spirit of the merger and we should allow for diversity in the body and unite on what we have in common while minimizing our differences.....are the ones who are the most vocal to rail against standards and ANY doctrinal view different than their own. If they really desired the "spirit of the merger" they would keep their dissenting views to themselves and allow everyone to believe what they feel is right. But they are no different than the ones they charge with being divisive. They have become judgmental and mean spirited against those that they charge with the same. They claim freedom.....but they are bound by the bitterness and hatred for the doctrine/group they have come out of.
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A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
I'm not sure, but I don't think that Brother Yadon's ministry was "destroyed." It may have been destroyed in the UPCI, but I believe that he pastors a good church in Idaho now. Some of you who still are in contact with his son might be able to confirm that?
(Just as a matter of information, I am not defending anyone regarding this. Neither KH or LY. I always though LY was a wonderful preacher. Loved his teachings, especially regarding practical living for God. KH was also a great man and my pastor for many years. I loved him and his ministry. However, neither man is perfect.)
I also wanted to comment about bishoph's question regarding whether Sister Olive Haney was "in" the church when the photograph in question was taken. It is my understanding that yes, she was in Brother Ewart's church at that time. Her parents were missionaries to Japan, in fact, if memory serves me correctly, she was born there. They returned to the states and became a part of Brother Ewart's church. At what point the stricter standards began in her life, I am not sure, but she was one of the most Christ-like people I have ever known.
__________________ For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11
I'm not sure, but I don't think that Brother Yadon's ministry was "destroyed." It may have been destroyed in the UPCI, but I believe that he pastors a good church in Idaho now. Some of you who still are in contact with his son might be able to confirm that?
Yes, he does pastor a church in Idaho.
To say his ministry wasn't destroyed ignores what happened. He was left without a job, his wife was left without a job. There was a concerted effort to close every pulpit within the organization to him. He was forced into obscurity. A man with a great history, a great wordsmith, and one of the few men at that time with a graduate level education in theology and he was effectively banished. His entire life was wrapped up in an organization who no longer would have anything to do with him. Yes, I would say his ministry was destroyed.
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"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow." ~Aesop
This message was a historical landmark (no pun intended) in the life of the UPCI, few messages are remembered 20 years after the fact, I can count the ones I remember on one hand. This was the sermon heard around the organization even though it was quickly cut off and tapes were no longer sold. My own copy was loaned out and "eaten" by a tape player. It took several years of searching and asking to find this historical document again and make it available to the masses.
As a historical event only fools would turn their back on the historical evidence and continue to repeat the same mistakes. It is not about tearing down, it is about setting the record straight, in the face of historical revisionists. This was the history of many of us, and we have an obligation to object to the lies that have been told about our past.
In addition it is a low shot to claim that Dan "Despises the doctrine his dad preached." I don't think that is a judgment that you can make, I am not sure there is anyone Dan places on a higher plane than his Father. Extremely low class remark.
well Baron, As for Brother LY's sermon, let me say that I love and appreciate him and believe the UPCI would have been far better off to heed the warning. I am thankful to God that his ministry was not ruined and that he has found a place to further the work God has for him.
No man can destroy what God built.
As for Dan, the man is a destroyer. whatever bitterness he refused to deal with is now his driver. Call it a low blow if you want. I dont care. It is the truth. someone needs to speak the truth. I have more to say on the subject but it would further no purpose. What i have said, I have said for purpose and sand by it.
Go build something my friend (and I do consider you my friend). That is exactly what LY did. He is a good example to us all.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
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