What are the differences?

JamesGlen · #1 02-11-2019, 09:59 PM

In the “fruit production” and/or lifestyle (as it relates to genuine discipleship), of a disciple of Jesus Christ, that loves God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength that hasn’t received His spirit evidenced w tongues..
Vs.
Another person the same, except after they’ve received the Holyghost, evidenced w tongues?

Are the people that have spoken in tongues for years any more “Christ like” than other genuinely sincere Christians that have not?

Howso?

Apostolic1ness · #2 02-12-2019, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

In the “fruit production” and/or lifestyle (as it relates to genuine discipleship), of a disciple of Jesus Christ, that loves God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength that hasn’t received His spirit evidenced w tongues..
Vs.
Another person the same, except after they’ve received the Holyghost, evidenced w tongues?

Are the people that have spoken in tongues for years any more “Christ like” than other genuinely sincere Christians that have not?

Howso?

the short answer is, yes the person with the Holy Ghost is more Christ like for the simple fact that they have received the same spirit that was also in Christ. As to the other person the Spirit of Christ is not in them.

Michael The Disciple · #3 02-12-2019, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

In the “fruit production” and/or lifestyle (as it relates to genuine discipleship), of a disciple of Jesus Christ, that loves God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength that hasn’t received His spirit evidenced w tongues..
Vs.
Another person the same, except after they’ve received the Holyghost, evidenced w tongues?

Are the people that have spoken in tongues for years any more “Christ like” than other genuinely sincere Christians that have not?

Howso?

First off of those who have NOT received the Holy Ghost with tongues there are two groups. One group of Church goers attend Churches that are liberal and support sin. They perhaps confess Jesus but also pursue the world. Their teachers are generally tares serving the devil.

There are smaller groups who do not accept the evidence doctrine who nonetheless throw themselves into the teachings of Christ wholeheartedly. I'm thinking of groups particularly who teach tongues is not the ONLY initial evidence but may be real for SOME but not all. They strive to do Gods will and may come across actually seeming Christ Like. IMO if they are taught to take God seriously they will be able to win victories in various battles because they are exercising faith in the word of God.

Then there are those who have received the Holy Spirit baptism and lets say attend a Pentecostal or Charismatic Church. Many of these when you get to know them seem much the same (or even less Christ like) as those who dont have it.

In such cases the POTENTIAL to walk as Jesus walked is there but they are not TRAINED IN DISCIPLESHIP. They are not taught very basic truths such as putting Jesus above EVERYONE OR EVERYTHING.

That is taking up the cross and denying themselves. Abiding in Jesus always in prayer and exercising faith in his word. To many times they are taught if they quit drugs, drinking, alcohol, and whoredoms they are overcomers!

Well to overcome such things is a great starting place but from my own personal experience of 44 years around Pentecostal/Charismatic people very few of them place a high value upon the teachings of Jesus In the sermon on the mount. This is when one is getting truly serious with him. This is the bulk of his commandments.

Many Pastors only teach on this kind of discipleship every few years if even that! So those sheep who DO have the Spirit who should be able to obey ALL of the will of God are often discouraged to follow his commands.

Things like meekness and turning the other cheek are made to seem "sissified". Heart purity is ignored while the doctrines of men such as "shave only" or "obey the standards of the Pastor" are drilled into him.

So altho the Spirit filled believer CAN AND SHOULD be like Jesus the quality of the doctrine he is taught will have much to do with where he winds up. So we wind up with situations where those who have the Holy Ghost but are taught to obey mens standards come across perhaps not even as Christ like as others who without the Spirit who having been taught the commandments of Christ more fully at least try to follow.

Esaias · #4 02-12-2019, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

In the “fruit production” and/or lifestyle (as it relates to genuine discipleship), of a disciple of Jesus Christ, that loves God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength that hasn’t received His spirit evidenced w tongues..
Vs.
Another person the same, except after they’ve received the Holyghost, evidenced w tongues?

Are the people that have spoken in tongues for years any more “Christ like” than other genuinely sincere Christians that have not?

Howso?

The "fruit of the Spirit" described in Galatians 5:22-23 and Ephesians 5:9) are the identifying characteristics of the Spirit's working and leading. They are not presented in such a way that we could conclude ONLY those who have received the Holy Ghost can have the things described as "fruit of the Spirit", however.

Plenty of people, including abject sinners and infidels, can be long suffering, for example. Temperance was a cardinal virtue not only in Judaism, but Stoicism and other Graeco-Roman philosophical schools and many religions and Mystery Cults, not to mention a virtue admired by practically all peoples everywhere at all times. Plenty of people have joy regardless of religion, and even sinners love themselves, family, friends, and even their enemies in some cases. Lots of hippy dippy new agers are gentle and feel great peace and live peacefully.

So, the Bible isn't saying you can't have these things unless you have the Spirit. But it is saying if you DO have the Spirit and are being led by the Spirit, these things will be prevalent in your life and character. Thus, those who do NOT have these things are likely NOT led by the Spirit and possibly don't have the Spirit to begin with - regardless of how "ecstatic" or "supernatural" or "apostolic" they appear to be.

Now, as for the fruit of righteousness, that is, genuine obedience to God, that is the fruit that results from believing Jesus (which includes following His teachings and commandments). The Spirit certainly empowers the individual to obey God and live righteously (Ezekiel 36:27). In fact, ALL inclination to obey God is a leading of the Spirit, that is to say, such inclinations or desires are introduced to the individual by an influence of God's Spirit. Therefore, even those who have not received the Spirit may be inclined to obey God and follow righteousness.

But the key is to understand that genuine righteousness is more than just do's and dont's. It is wholly dependent upon being in Christ, so that righteousness = being in Christ. Further, the Spirit is given to lead us into and in Christ, that is, to lead us in righteousness. So those who have not yet received the Spirit may be said to be "in Christ" (assuming they have repented and been baptised into His Name and become His followers), but being in Christ involves even more than just living a Biblically ethical lifestyle: it also includes supernatural contact with the Father by His Spirit.

In the Old Testament such persons were called prophets. In the New Testament they are called Christians. See Numbers 11:29, for example.

Also, the Spirit's work in the genuine Pentecostal baptism includes the purification of the heart by faith (Acts 15:9). This is a Divine act resulting from and in some sense synonymous with receiving the Holy Ghost, and cannot be done by mere personal effort or initiative. We are told to purify our hearts (James 4:8), but this is done by availing ourselves of the Spirit's purging influence, not by our own efforts at scrubbing ourselves clean.

Lastly, one cannot effectively minister in the Body by the Spirit unless they have the Holy Ghost. While God can prophesy through a donkey, that is not at all the ideal nor is it normative or even desirable.

jfrog · #5 02-12-2019, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

In the “fruit production” and/or lifestyle (as it relates to genuine discipleship), of a disciple of Jesus Christ, that loves God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength that hasn’t received His spirit evidenced w tongues..
Vs.
Another person the same, except after they’ve received the Holyghost, evidenced w tongues?

Are the people that have spoken in tongues for years any more “Christ like” than other genuinely sincere Christians that have not?

Howso?

Define Christ like.

Personally I would say they are not any different in Christ likeness but it really depends on your definition of Christlike.

votivesoul · #6 02-14-2019, 07:11 PM

Romans 8:9 makes it pretty clear that anyone who has not received the Spirit doesn't belong to Christ, making such people not Christian by name, no matter what they call themselves.

So, there aren't two categories of Christians, those filled with the Spirit and those not filled with the Spirit.

JamesGlen · #7 02-15-2019, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Romans 8:9 makes it pretty clear that anyone who has not received the Spirit doesn't belong to Christ, making such people not Christian by name, no matter what they call themselves.

So, there aren't two categories of Christians, those filled with the Spirit and those not filled with the Spirit.

“Are”, I think is what u meant.

I bet JW’s say they are Spirit filled.