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  #61  
Old 12-13-2013, 04:34 PM
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ILG ILG is offline
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Re: Back with some new perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
I do not preach what I do not believe.
That would be a good thing.
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  #62  
Old 12-13-2013, 08:44 PM
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Roxanne Murphy Roxanne Murphy is offline
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Re: Back with some new perspective

I must say that my husband has been the greatest influence in this journey of change. He knows me best, and is at least as stubborn as I am and incredibly persistent when he believes he is right. He nudged me along to look again, really look, at what those choice 'holiness' scripture snippets mean when left in context. Doing that, looking at those texts in context, was incredible and scary all at the same time.
There were some rough spots, and one summer evening where I told Sean, "If I did not love and honor you as my husband, and if I did not love and respect our pastor and his wife, I would walk away from all of this." Having everything I had ever known as church and godliness had been turned on its ear in my life and it was very painful.
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  #63  
Old 12-13-2013, 11:47 PM
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Re: Back with some new perspective

So where are you today in this journey? I'm sure you'll get around to it eventually, but inquiring minds want to know....
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  #64  
Old 12-14-2013, 03:58 AM
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Re: Back with some new perspective

A mindless robot would be a good reason to believe the drivel from the manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
Okay, so the first post was incorrect in the timeline you gave. He didn't "set out" to study after the well educated questions started coming; rather, he was already well into the process and you simply miswrote the timeline.

I was also a 3rd gen UPC PK, trained and taught in the UPC doctrine all my formative years in the church ACE school - complete with the UPCI "Pentecostal Doctrine" textbooks; though, I wasn't a mindless robot who believed everything without studying myself.

It's sad the number of ministers, especially Pastors, who admit they never have studied standards or other doctrinal issues for themselves, instead relying on what they were spoon-fed.
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A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson

Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado

Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard

Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
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  #65  
Old 12-14-2013, 04:35 AM
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Re: Back with some new perspective

Welcome to the world of compromise for the sake of numbers. Welcome to the land of bitter ex Pentecostals. Your world will turn upside down, but it is for the better.
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A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson

Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado

Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard

Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
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  #66  
Old 12-14-2013, 09:16 AM
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Hoovie Hoovie is offline
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Re: Back with some new perspective

Ok.... I just now read the thread and as usual find myself in the middle.

I do agree with most of N David's responses though.

Roxanne It's important to realize there are many honest, transparent, and well educated members in the UPC and conservative "standard adhering" groups within the. Body of Christ. Because you and your pastor were not, doesn't automatically speak to the character of others.

Now, I am not educated with degrees in higher learning, but even in my most conservative times I was not condemning, judgmental, nor even excessively critical of those attending nonstandard churches.

Sooo... It seems to me when we profile conservatives as a block we risk embracing the same thinking that often leads to labeling those who have left as "charismatics" (like they all are, or that it's a bad thing).

We can speak of our own experience and shallowness... But beyond that, postulating carries little weight. I rejoice in new-found honesty wherever it's found, but wholly understand that disingenuous, shallow, and condemning people are found everywhere. We all need Jesus to speak to us about His sufficiency in our lives.
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"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves

Last edited by Hoovie; 12-14-2013 at 10:15 AM.
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  #67  
Old 12-14-2013, 10:26 AM
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Re: Back with some new perspective

It didn't take long for the legalists apologists to circle the wagon. Not every legalist is a self righteous Bible thumping closed minded bigot. They just sit quietly as a church mouse when the 99% self righteous people attack the others. Their silence shows their support of that behavior. If you hang with pigs, be prepared to smell like the pigs.
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A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson

Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado

Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard

Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
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  #68  
Old 12-14-2013, 10:40 AM
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Re: Back with some new perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
Sooo... It seems to me when we profile conservatives as a block we risk embracing the same thinking that often leads to labeling those who have left as "charismatics" (like they all are, or that it's a bad thing).
I agree with this. All conservatives are not a certain way. However, when viewing groups as a whole, it is often safe to say "This group has a tendency to this or that". I think the danger comes in when we judge and label others without considering that individuals are what makes up groups. On the flip-side, groups as a whole do have tendencies to certain views and problems and I think it is good to discuss and consider those things no matter who the groups are and no matter their beliefs.
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When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
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  #69  
Old 12-14-2013, 11:14 AM
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KeptByTheWord KeptByTheWord is offline
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Re: Back with some new perspective

I think this is a pendulum that swings between "liberal" and "conservative" and all of us should hope to find the middle ground, and not be too far to the left or the right.

Most of the time when one leaves a group that is "liberal" and moves to the "conservative side", or a "conservative" moves to the "liberal" side, the swing is wide and high, and can take out anyone in between, but as time passes, the pendulum begins to find its middle ground, and thereby one can find peace.
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  #70  
Old 12-14-2013, 11:14 AM
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Hoovie Hoovie is offline
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Re: Back with some new perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG View Post
I agree with this. All conservatives are not a certain way. However, when viewing groups as a whole, it is often safe to say "This group has a tendency to this or that". I think the danger comes in when we judge and label others without considering that individuals are what makes up groups. On the flip-side, groups as a whole do have tendencies to certain views and problems and I think it is good to discuss and consider those things no matter who the groups are and no matter their beliefs.
Except the individual members rarely act as a group. They are insulated both as individuals and as members of autonomous subgroups AKA "churches".

Generally yes, I think we can say "Some members in XYZ have been known to have a tendency to..."
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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