Magic In The UPC

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So you believe he is operating supernatural demonic power, too, and that it is not sleight of hand, but genuine supernatural power?

If he is not operating under the influence of an evil spirit he is teaching childern and adults that DECEPTION is ok. Just good clean fun!

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So you believe he is operating supernatural demonic power, too, and that it is not sleight of hand, but genuine supernatural power?

I already said, I love Bro. Arnold. I believe what he is doing he believes is innocent. I don’t believe that it is innocent. Do I believe he is operating in demonic spirit, no I don’t. I do believe it is an open door for a deeper deception.

Maybe you can figure this out. What is that demonic looking statue in back of Bro. Arnold in one of the videos pressing on posted?

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

...

Maybe you can figure this out. What is that demonic looking statue in back of Bro. Arnold in one of the videos pressing on posted?

It looks to me like an Asian (Chinese or Mongol?) warrior on horseback.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If he is not operating under the influence of an evil spirit he is teaching childern and adults that DECEPTION is ok. Just good clean fun!

If he is not? If?

SLEIGHT OF HAND. Say it with me -- SLEIGHT ... OF... HAND.

No "IF" about it. He's NOT.

Deception is okay, while he reveals how the trick is done and removes any doubt of deception?

Right. No deception is involved. He sis SHOWING how it works!

You're literally on a witch-hunt. For some reason you do not want it to be innocent. Any reasonable person knows sleight of hand, especially when it is REVEALED, is not deception nor magic. You're simply not being reasonable.

Now you guys are talking about a desktop figurine?

You watch WAAAY too much conpspiracy stories on youtube.

[mfblume]

Once again, I would not do such a thing in church at all. The only fault I see is using the word "magic," but not in the way you guys are attacking that use. It's the same WORD for actual evil power. I would not use the word at all. If he used the word "sleight-of-hand" alone and "illusion", that's a totally different ballgame. But that's where I stop.

But you guys went further than that, and implied he was opening doors to the occult for people and deceiving them, which is not true at all. That is simply dishonest of you. And MTD implied it was actual demonic power he used, which is incredibly dishonest.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by mfblume

If he is not? If?

SLEIGHT OF HAND. Say it with me -- SLEIGHT ... OF... HAND.

No "IF" about it. He's NOT.

Deception is okay, while he reveals how the trick is done and removes any doubt of deception?

Right. No deception is involved. He sis SHOWING how it works!

You're literally on a witch-hunt. For some reason you do not want it to be innocent. Any reasonable person knows sleight of hand, especially when it is REVEALED, is not deception nor magic. You're simply not being reasonable.

Now you guys are talking about a desktop figurine?

You watch WAAAY too much conspiracy stories on youtube.

That ain’t true.

I believe in open doors, you obviously don’t.

Like so many, we can take performances that have demonic roots, and as long as we explain how we’re doing it, it’s no longer evil.

You know where the deception is, it’s not the full blown demoniac, it’s not the dark curious arts, it’s not the witch doctors, you can be spiritual as a duck and figure that out. It’s when something looks innocent, yet there is an evil appearance to it.

“Woe to them, that call good, evil, and evil, good.”

[diakonos]

Ridiculous

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

That ain’t true.

I believe in open doors, you obviously don’t.

Like so many, we can take performances that have demonic roots, and as long as we explain how we’re doing it, it’s no longer evil.

You know where the deception is, it’s not the full blown demoniac, it’s not the dark curious arts, it’s not the witch doctors, you can be spiritual as a duck and figure that out. It’s when something looks innocent, yet there is an evil appearance to it.

“Woe to them, that call good, evil, and evil, good.”

Sorry, you're on a witch hunt.

I understand open doors, in the years I've cast devils out of people.

But you're being somewhat radical.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Once again, I would not do such a thing in church at all. The only fault I see is using the word "magic," but not in the way you guys are attacking that use. It's the same WORD for actual evil power. I would not use the word at all. If he used the word "sleight-of-hand" alone and "illusion", that's a totally different ballgame. But that's where I stop.

But you guys went further than that, and implied he was opening doors to the occult for people and deceiving them, which is not true at all. That is simply dishonest of you. And MTD implied it was actual demonic power he used, which is incredibly dishonest.

Mike, why would you NOT do such a thing in Church?

If you cant see having MAGIC......NOT MY WORDS.....HIS in Church or anywhere as being an open door to the occult and demonic realm then todays Churches are even more shallow than I thought.

The "implication" you referred to, I said if he is not being INFLUENCED by demonic power.......

Yes I can see that clearly. Only satan would get a Bishop thinking to have MAGIC MONDAY in Church. Its a great victory for him.

I never said Arnold HAS a demon in his heart. But is he being INFLUENCED by the enemy? I believe so. Would Jesus influence one to be "sleight of hand" magic tricks to entertain HIS CHURCH?

It is true that one could be greatly used of God at points in their lives. Even living godly and holy. But if a door is opened to the enemy he will use it. It has happened to many great Preachers. It has happened to close friends of mine who were powerfully used.

The worse part is perhaps when they have such control of the peoples minds they JUSTIFY THE SIN!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

That ain’t true.

I believe in open doors, you obviously don’t.

Like so many, we can take performances that have demonic roots, and as long as we explain how we’re doing it, it’s no longer evil.

You know where the deception is, it’s not the full blown demoniac, it’s not the dark curious arts, it’s not the witch doctors, you can be spiritual as a duck and figure that out. It’s when something looks innocent, yet there is an evil appearance to it.

“Woe to them, that call good, evil, and evil, good.”

If I teach my dog tricks, is that an open door to the demonic?

One of the key "open doors" to the occult is superstitious thinking that finds an "open door" under nearly every rock.

A person doing tricks or optical illusions for the purpose of entertainment I do not see as an opening for demons, especially when neither the performer nor the audience is under any belief that anything paranormal is taking place. At most there may be a waste of time on superfluous entertainment as a career choice.

I certainly don't think parlour tricks belong in a church meeting UNLESS maybe it's part of an object lesson on the need for paying attention and not being distracted. Which could probably be accomplished by simply mentioning sleight of hand rather than trying to actually demonstrate it. I don't believe church and entertainment go together.

Now a stage magician using a bunch of occultic imagery as part of their routine I think is another thing altogether.