MTD, I'll answer your question, but it is an oversimplification, so please allow me to dissect it a little bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Those who believe one is saved through belief in the resurrection of Jesus apart from water baptism or the Holy Spirit baptism. Your belief includes Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Catholics and so forth as I understand it.
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Not necessarily. More accurately stated it is the belief that the church is not limited to a particular denomination or movement. We (I) do believe that some Baptists are saved, some Lutherans, some Methodists, some Presbyterians, some Anglicans, and likely some Catholics, however that doesn't mean that
(IMO) the people who identify themselves with those groups are saved at the same proportion. What I mean is I think that there are probably more people who are actually saved within say the Baptist church movement than the more liberal Protestant denominations. and while I wouldn't feel comfortable saying all Catholics are lost, I do think that there is probably a very low percentage of genuinely saved people identified with the Catholic Church, especially considering all of the idolatry (in regard to statues/icons, Mary, the Pope, etc). I would certainly suggest that a Catholic leave that system, but I don't think its an impossibility to be a Catholic and be saved. But having said that, it is my opinion that most people who identify themselves as Christian in the US are false converts. My guess would be only about 20% of those who identify themselves as Christian in the US are actually saved. And I wouldn't be shocked if the percentage was lower.
(Bear in mind the Parable of the sower in
Mark 4, we have many shallow ground types-(emotional response/no root), and theory ground types (too busy with everything else to really be committed to Christ)-neither of these types of people ultimately bear any fruit, despite the fact that they both have a favorable disposition to the gospel. I think the fact that they don't bear fruit is indicates not that they were saved and fell away, but that they were never saved in the first place, and only gave the appearance of salvation for a time).
I don't believe someone just identifies themselves as Christian, joins a church, or says the sinner prayer to be saved. I believe that someone has to understand the basic gospel message and repent of their sins and trust in Christ. If they truly do this I believe God justifies, regenerates, and adopts them (simultaneously from the human viewpoint). And if the Spirit of God dwells within, then just as the seed in the next Parable (
Mark 4:26-29) grows automatically, although day by day its growth is imperceptible, in the same way those who are truly born again of the Spirit (i.e. regenerate) will produce fruit. They can do nothing but produce fruit, for the Spirit dwells within.
Thus I understand salvation as complete surrender by faith in Christ and to Christ repentance, and the evidence that this conversion was genuine will be the work of the Spirit in the person life (see
James 2:16-24).
Ok, so I know thats a bit wordy, so now to answer your question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
So if Protestants and Catholics are among the saved people what about Jehovah Witnesses? Do you count them to be saved? If not why?
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I am going to say NO, but I'm going to make it a qualified no.
I don't believe them to be saved because they are part of a heretical cult with many bad doctrines (though you agree with them on annihilationism) which denies the deity of Jesus, and their works based salvation model which includes forced "evangelism" (I think JWs call it preaching ministry) and complete submission to the "Governing Body" (the Watch Tower Tract Society).
However, I do think there is a possibility that some could be saved and this is why:
Jehovah's Witness believe in and worship Jesus Christ. They believe He is the Messiah, the Son of God. They believe that His literal death on the cross atoned for their sins. And (in a sense) they believe they are made right with God by faith in Christ.
We also need to consider that JW's are modern day Arians. And if we say that no Arian ever can be saved (which could possibly be a true statement, I'm just not willing to be that dogmatic on it), then we have to consider that during the 3rd century the majority of the church was Arian for a while, and in the East Christianity was almost exclusively Arian, and many of the Germanic Tribes that took over the Roman Empire were Arian. Thus the church of the first 5 (especially 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries) included a LOT of Arians. I don't think its absolutely impossible that none of them were saved, so I tend to think the same about JW's.
However-Arians denied the deity of Christ, but JWs teach He is the arch angel Micheal. I'm not sure whether or not the early Arians denied the physical resurrection, but I know JW's do. So if we say that belief in the absolute deity of Jesus and his physical resurrection are required to be saved, then the answer is NO on JW's, and thats why I have to ultimately say no, in my opinion. I would strongly advise any JW to leave that organization immediately and find a good Bible believing church.
I think the same about Mormonism, though I don't know as much about it. I say a qualified no.
Some would say, well if you leave the door open, even just a crack (and really its more like the little bit of light that peeks out under the door) then do you believe Muslims, Hindus, and agnostics are saved?
I'd say NO. Here's the difference. I do believe that salvation is exclusively through Jesus Christ, and in particular through the person and work of Christ. Thus if someone denies that He is the Son of God, that He died on the Cross, or that He is risen, I can't see anyway that person can be saved.
Whereas JWs and Mormons are both heretical cults, they still at least claim to believe the gospel (I think we could throw in 7th Day Adventists too---and a lot of people would even throw in....ONENESS PENTECOSTALS). They are at least on the fringe of the Christian circle (probably just outside of it). So while I'd be surprised if we saw JWs in heaven, I can't say I'd feel "deceived" or "duped".
However if there were Sikhs, Muslims, Rastafarians, etc, I admit, I would be terribly confused. But even then, I would think they could only be there because the sacrifice of Christ had so much greater an application than what we understand. BUT-I don't see that in the scriptures, I see eternal life and death. Two ways. Heaven and hell. Well done and depart from me. So in every way I have to reject universalism, and
thus I have to affirm to exclusivity of salvation through Christ, only for those who repent of their sins and trust in Him. And IMO to believe any thing else is to reject the clear teaching of God's Word.
That should stir up some conversation.
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