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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #331  
Old 09-03-2022, 09:29 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
So we can worship idols and commit adultery and anything else we want.
The Holy Ghost would convict me of idolatry. There are direct commands by the apostles that forbid idolatry.

1 Corinthians 10:14
Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

Quote:
Where does the Bible teach this?
I can give you an example.

The above scripture is a command to flee idolatry. That NT teaching is to be directly obeyed.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

This is a principle. There are many different applications that a principle can be applied. We are to view our body as the church. I frequently get told when I invite people to our church that the rafters would fall in if they came in. They are insinuating if a unholy person came into a holy place God would destroy them. The reality is that the church building isn’t what is holy, but we are. If there is something we would be convicted to do in the aka “Lord’s house”, the we shouldn’t do it at all. Our body is the Lord’s house.

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You should read Acts more closely then. And maybe learn about early church history.
I have read the Acts of apostles, and I will continue to read it closely. As for church history, it is interesting, but we do not develop doctrine from history.
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  #332  
Old 09-04-2022, 12:06 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
The Holy Ghost would convict me of idolatry. There are direct commands by the apostles that forbid idolatry.

1 Corinthians 10:14
Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

You seem to have glossed over the word "Wherefore". I'll just leave it at that.

Quote:
I can give you an example.

The above scripture is a command to flee idolatry. That NT teaching is to be directly obeyed.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

This is a principle. There are many different applications that a principle can be applied. We are to view our body as the church. I frequently get told when I invite people to our church that the rafters would fall in if they came in. They are insinuating if a unholy person came into a holy place God would destroy them. The reality is that the church building isn’t what is holy, but we are. If there is something we would be convicted to do in the aka “Lord’s house”, the we shouldn’t do it at all. Our body is the Lord’s house.


I asked where does the Bible teach "The NT contains commands to be obeyed as well as principles" etc. You didn't show where the NT teaches what you said. You have a view of the NT, and of the OT. I am asking where does the Bible teach your view of the OT and NT that you are espousing? I am not asking "where does the Bible teach your doctrine concerning" the sabbath, or the 10 commandments, or ministerial salaries. I am asking where does the Bible teach your particular doctrine of the Word and its authority and how we are to take it?
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  #333  
Old 09-04-2022, 01:05 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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I asked where does the Bible teach "The NT contains commands to be obeyed as well as principles" etc
I think this is what you are intending to quote from me?

Quote:
The NT gives both principles and direct commands. We are to follow the direct commands and learn from the principles.
I am confused with what you don’t understand? Did you read my examples of a biblical principle and a biblical command?

My view differentiates the law of Moses from the new covenant church commands. The law of Moses was specifically for Israel.

Exodus 19:3
And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

The law was never given to me. The law is exclusively Jewish.

Colossians 2:16-17
16......Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17......Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbaths along with all the law of Moses is fulfilled.

2 Corinthians 3:6-7
6......Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7......But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

As far as pastoral salaries, there is no direct command of systematic giving (like was required in the law concerning tithe). There are a multitude of principles that can be applied as giving salaries to ministers. The thing about being Spirit led and having a principle, is that there is flexibility in how it can be applied. I am not demanding salaries for ministers, but using it to illustrate one method of applying a principle. Tithing today is not obligatory, but the principle of supporting ministry is. God will judge by the law written in our hearts. Therefore, we are not always able to call everyone right or wrong in. The wheat and rates will be sorted out by God at the resurrection.
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  #334  
Old 09-04-2022, 03:08 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
I think this is what you are intending to quote from me?



I am confused with what you don’t understand? Did you read my examples of a biblical principle and a biblical command?

My view differentiates the law of Moses from the new covenant church commands. The law of Moses was specifically for Israel.

Exodus 19:3
And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

The law was never given to me. The law is exclusively Jewish.

Colossians 2:16-17
16......Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17......Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbaths along with all the law of Moses is fulfilled.

2 Corinthians 3:6-7
6......Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7......But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

As far as pastoral salaries, there is no direct command of systematic giving (like was required in the law concerning tithe). There are a multitude of principles that can be applied as giving salaries to ministers. The thing about being Spirit led and having a principle, is that there is flexibility in how it can be applied. I am not demanding salaries for ministers, but using it to illustrate one method of applying a principle. Tithing today is not obligatory, but the principle of supporting ministry is. God will judge by the law written in our hearts. Therefore, we are not always able to call everyone right or wrong in. The wheat and rates will be sorted out by God at the resurrection.
Romans 2:12-16 KJV
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another [16] In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
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  #335  
Old 09-04-2022, 03:18 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Romans 2:12-16 KJV
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another [16] In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
The gentiles which have not the law, the law of Moses was not given to gentiles. The law we will answer for is the one written in their hearts.
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  #336  
Old 09-04-2022, 11:36 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
The gentiles which have not the law, the law of Moses was not given to gentiles. The law we will answer for is the one written in their hearts.
Your ability to not actually read stuff is astounding.
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  #337  
Old 09-05-2022, 12:01 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Your ability to not actually read stuff is astounding.
Thank you! I try my best
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  #338  
Old 09-05-2022, 12:03 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Your ability to not actually read stuff is astounding.
Also thank you for the sport that you are. We have really probably belabored the subject, but I enjoy going back in forth with you.
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  #339  
Old 09-05-2022, 10:15 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Also thank you for the sport that you are. We have really probably belabored the subject, but I enjoy going back in forth with you.
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  #340  
Old 09-07-2022, 12:13 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
He addressed that already in one of his posts:
Thanks.

If that only says, though, that if priests could live solely by food being given to them, then who is to say that Paul did not state that ministers of the gospel should be supplied with food so as to forego working for food?

But the truth is that the priests had much more than only food provided to them. They had housing and lodging. Their livelihood was being addressed by Paul when he said to live of the things of the temple, not just food from the altar.
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