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  #81  
Old 11-21-2019, 03:38 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
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Re: Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
Esaias,
Do you feel better?
You say I don’t have a biblical understanding of authority, and I’m the one saying rebellion is wrong??? Your telling me rebellion to man is ok, and your trying to give biblical examples to explain that. If you want to believe that rebellion to man is ok have at it.

You don’t have to sound all bitter and angry. I’m giving you why I believe what I believe, this is my understanding. I guess you feel you have the right to tell me what I believe is wrong. Do you what you feel....

Like I said before, I’d like to have a civil discourse, and I was told, that’s what we’re here for. Apparently, the only civil discourse we can talk about is when people agree with the majority opinion. Well, that’s not how it rolls my friend.

I told you why I believe america was founded on rebellion, I don’t believe they followed the Holy Ghost to fight against their authority. When we follow our flesh it leads to rebellion, I was taught that by apostolic preachers. So, if your upset with me, go talk to D.C Moody, O.R Fauss, Wayne Bellew, I can give you a list to go on and on. These men taught me to following my flesh leads to rebellion. Now, anyone that would like to have a discussion, was the American Revolution of the Holy Ghost or man? Do you believe, the Holy Ghost instructed this men to kill their authority, because of being taxed????
Brother, I think we have discovered the problem. You are not basing your doctrine on scripture. You are basing it on the doctrine of men.

If the Bible doesn’t support your doctrine of men, you ignore the Bible. You would believe men that you can (or in this case, could) see and hear, rather than God, who you cannot see. Whose report shall you believe?

And, don’t get too uptight about the civil discourse. Remember I warned you that it could become criminal, rather than civil. As for me, I wouldn’t expect everyone to believe everything just exactly like I do. That would be pretty bland. I expect debate on here. I’m seldom disappointed.

But, you are right. It should be civil. Even friendly. The rumor is that we should even love one another, and bear one another’s burdens. But nobody really believes all that stuff, do they?
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  #82  
Old 11-21-2019, 04:08 PM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
You are correct. The “as is” is in italics, which is added for clarification, which is fortunate, because clarification (or, as you would put it, clearification) is exactly what we are in need of. Saul’s rebellion was that he rejected the word of God. He didn’t rebel against man, he rebelled against God. Just trying to clearify for you.



I beg to differ with you on this point. The Jews were absolutely part of the government. The Sanhedrin was part of the government. The high priest was part of the government of the Jews. Absolutely.



Brother!!!! I HAVE explained it to you (about five times). The trouble is not that I haven’t explained it to you. The problem is that I cannot understand it for you. Read Acts 5

[29] Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Read, no study, this. It means that they had to make a choice. They could obey man, but to do so would be to rebel against God. On the other hand they could obey God, which would mean that they would be in rebellion to man. And yes, men that were in the Jewish government.



Absolutely. Positively.

In some cases it is necessary. (Read number three.)
Rebellion to God is Witchcraft.
Rebellion to authority is victory. (As long as you believe its against Gods law.)
Brother, I just don’t agree, and you can have that opinion. I believe when Samuel said rebellion is witchcraft he didn’t put conditions on it. I believe Rebellion is different than disobedience, you don’t and that’s fine. I believe in standing for truth, yet not giving into rebellion. Young men and women if they believe their authority is wrong can stand against it and be blessed. Women who they believe there husband is wanting for them to do something they believe is against God can rebel against their authority and God will bless them. Saints in the church who they believe their Pastor is not in Gods word, can stand against their Pastor and God will bless them. Why not use the example I started with, if your a Pastor teach your saints if you think your taxes are high and your government is oppressive, rebel against the government and over throw it. God will give you the victory.
My opinion is the way you treat your wife is the way you treat your relationship with God! The way you treat your family is the way your relationship with God is going. The Bible says bless them that hate you, do good unto them that dispitefully use you. Jesus taught us to render to Caesar’s (their government) and to God the things that are Gods. James taught us you CANNOT hate your brother and love God. Jesus said they’ll know your my disciple by the love you’ll have one for another. I disagree with the notion that you can treat God with respect and reverence and yet your fellow man you can treat differently. Disciples wanted to call fire down on people and Jesus rebuked them and said “ye know not what spirit your of!” The moment you can put conditions of sin that means other sins have conditions as well

Were going to disagree on this, but it was a great discussion.
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  #83  
Old 11-21-2019, 04:18 PM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Brother, I think we have discovered the problem. You are not basing your doctrine on scripture. You are basing it on the doctrine of men.

If the Bible doesn’t support your doctrine of men, you ignore the Bible. You would believe men that you can (or in this case, could) see and hear, rather than God, who you cannot see. Whose report shall you believe?

And, don’t get too uptight about the civil discourse. Remember I warned you that it could become criminal, rather than civil. As for me, I wouldn’t expect everyone to believe everything just exactly like I do. That would be pretty bland. I expect debate on here. I’m seldom disappointed.

But, you are right. It should be civil. Even friendly. The rumor is that we should even love one another, and bear one another’s burdens. But nobody really believes all that stuff, do they?
With all due respect, my doctrine is not of men. I said there are no conditions of Rebellion you believe there is. You don’t believe Rebellion is self will, I do. You believe it’s ok to rebel against man, I don’t! I believe in authority, God or man, and when man gets out of the will of God, it’s not something to be taken lightly. David ran from Saul, he said “I will not touch the Lords anointed” , Paul said to obey them that have the rule over you. But anything I will mention will have “conditions” on it
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  #84  
Old 11-21-2019, 05:09 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
Esaias,
Do you feel better?
You say I don’t have a biblical understanding of authority, and I’m the one saying rebellion is wrong??? Your telling me rebellion to man is ok, and your trying to give biblical examples to explain that. If you want to believe that rebellion to man is ok have at it.

You don’t have to sound all bitter and angry. I’m giving you why I believe what I believe, this is my understanding. I guess you feel you have the right to tell me what I believe is wrong. Do you what you feel....

Like I said before, I’d like to have a civil discourse, and I was told, that’s what we’re here for. Apparently, the only civil discourse we can talk about is when people agree with the majority opinion. Well, that’s not how it rolls my friend.

I told you why I believe america was founded on rebellion, I don’t believe they followed the Holy Ghost to fight against their authority. When we follow our flesh it leads to rebellion, I was taught that by apostolic preachers. So, if your upset with me, go talk to D.C Moody, O.R Fauss, Wayne Bellew, I can give you a list to go on and on. These men taught me to following my flesh leads to rebellion. Now, anyone that would like to have a discussion, was the American Revolution of the Holy Ghost or man? Do you believe, the Holy Ghost instructed this men to kill their authority, because of being taxed????
Bitter? Angry? Hardly. More like slightly amused.

I'm telling you that your understanding of authority, rebellion, etc, is not aligned with the Word of God. Therefore, it follows as a matter of logical necessity that your opinions on the subject carry no weight.

As for "why (you) believe America was founded on (sinful) rebellion", it doesn't really matter because your opinion of that is based on a series of compounding errors regarding the Bible doctrine of authority and moral obligation in general, the Bible doctrine of the lesser magistracy (human government), and the historical facts concerning the American War of Independence. You seem ignorant of the fact that the colonists did NOT kill King George, overthrow Parliament, or even their own colonial governments. Now, you can believe unicorns fart rainbows while singing God Save The King, but it really doesn't matter.

Once again, you have spent several pages of NOT showing the Scriptures that teach what you teach. Once again, you have your opinion which you believe is truth, and that apparently you have no obligation to provide book, chapter, and verse showing your INTERPRETATION of Samuel's statement is the truth.

Which means neither I, nor anyone else, has any obligation to take your pronouncements seriously.
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  #85  
Old 11-21-2019, 06:14 PM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Bitter? Angry? Hardly. More like slightly amused.

I'm telling you that your understanding of authority, rebellion, etc, is not aligned with the Word of God. Therefore, it follows as a matter of logical necessity that your opinions on the subject carry no weight.

As for "why (you) believe America was founded on (sinful) rebellion", it doesn't really matter because your opinion of that is based on a series of compounding errors regarding the Bible doctrine of authority and moral obligation in general, the Bible doctrine of the lesser magistracy (human government), and the historical facts concerning the American War of Independence. You seem ignorant of the fact that the colonists did NOT kill King George, overthrow Parliament, or even their own colonial governments. Now, you can believe unicorns fart rainbows while singing God Save The King, but it really doesn't matter.

Once again, you have spent several pages of NOT showing the Scriptures that teach what you teach. Once again, you have your opinion which you believe is truth, and that apparently you have no obligation to provide book, chapter, and verse showing your INTERPRETATION of Samuel's statement is the truth.

Which means neither I, nor anyone else, has any obligation to take your pronouncements seriously.
According to you:
I don’t understand authority
I don’t understand rebellion
I don’t provide scripture
I believe colonials killed king George (I never mentioned this)
I never showed a verse interpreting what Samuel said to Saul

What you really mean is, unless you believe like I believe and see it like I see it, then your wrong, in rebellion, stubborn, and (like you accused me of) in idolatry.

All I can say is I feel bad for you, I really do.
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  #86  
Old 11-21-2019, 06:59 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
According to you:
I don’t understand authority
I don’t understand rebellion
I don’t provide scripture
I believe colonials killed king George (I never mentioned this)
I never showed a verse interpreting what Samuel said to Saul

What you really mean is, unless you believe like I believe and see it like I see it, then your wrong, in rebellion, stubborn, and (like you accused me of) in idolatry.

All I can say is I feel bad for you, I really do.
You said: Now, anyone that would like to have a discussion, was the American Revolution of the Holy Ghost or man? Do you believe, the Holy Ghost instructed this men to kill their authority, because of being taxed????

Your feeling bad for me is duly noted. As is your considerable lack of reading comprehension. I won't bother to lay it out, because I don't believe it will do either of us any good. Our posts, both mine and yours, stand on their own merits.
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  #87  
Old 11-22-2019, 11:38 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
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Re: Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
With all due respect, my doctrine is not of men. I said there are no conditions of Rebellion you believe there is. You don’t believe Rebellion is self will, I do. You believe it’s ok to rebel against man, I don’t! I believe in authority, God or man, and when man gets out of the will of God, it’s not something to be taken lightly. David ran from Saul, he said “I will not touch the Lords anointed” , Paul said to obey them that have the rule over you. But anything I will mention will have “conditions” on it
You said this. . .

“When we follow our flesh it leads to rebellion, I was taught that by apostolic preachers. So, if your upset with me, go talk to D.C Moody, O.R Fauss, Wayne Bellew, I can give you a list to go on and on.”

I took this to be a list of men. Hence, I surmised that your doctrine was based on the doctrine of men, and not necessarily scripture. Men are fallible. Even if they are the pope. Or even if they are the apostolic equivalent of the pope. (General superintendent, district superintendent, pastor, etc..) I realize that you seem to be of the camp that ascribes great authority to the pastor. This is (in my opinion, of course) a man made doctrine (not based on scripture). If you have scripture to back it I would be interested to listen.

So, yes. We might should agree to disagree, in a civil manner.

God bless.

P.S. And I do like what you say about the way a man treats his wife and family is a reflection of his relationship with God, or vice versa.

Last edited by Tithesmeister; 11-22-2019 at 11:48 AM.
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  #88  
Old 11-22-2019, 04:55 PM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
My point is invalid because I haven’t answered your question?

Gods Country wasn’t founded on Rebellion. Lol!
You refused to address the question, because it undermined your original point.

And you still haven't addressed it.

It was a simple question, with a simple (and easy) answer!
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  #89  
Old 11-22-2019, 09:13 PM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
You said this. . .

“When we follow our flesh it leads to rebellion, I was taught that by apostolic preachers. So, if your upset with me, go talk to D.C Moody, O.R Fauss, Wayne Bellew, I can give you a list to go on and on.”

I took this to be a list of men. Hence, I surmised that your doctrine was based on the doctrine of men, and not necessarily scripture. Men are fallible. Even if they are the pope. Or even if they are the apostolic equivalent of the pope. (General superintendent, district superintendent, pastor, etc..) I realize that you seem to be of the camp that ascribes great authority to the pastor. This is (in my opinion, of course) a man made doctrine (not based on scripture). If you have scripture to back it I would be interested to listen.

So, yes. We might should agree to disagree, in a civil manner.

God bless.

P.S. And I do like what you say about the way a man treats his wife and family is a reflection of his relationship with God, or vice versa.
Authority is given by God, Jesus told that to Pilate. Do I esteem these men, No sir, are they perfect, No, yet, neither am I. With that said you understand you cant be saved without a Pastor! Men preached doctrine it doesn’t mean it doctrines of men. On the other hand without knowledge and discernment you can go off in the ditch on both sides of the road. Also, I’m not in the camp of “All power is in the Pastor” I don’t subscribe to that, if you only knew! I don’t belong to a pyramid (organization) and I believe there 3 ways to lead
1-King
2-Priest
3-Shepherd
I try to lead like a Shepard. Now, I do believe in authority and how that authority runs can be of God or of men.
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  #90  
Old 11-22-2019, 09:15 PM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?

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You refused to address the question, because it undermined your original point.

And you still haven't addressed it.

It was a simple question, with a simple (and easy) answer!
It doesn’t undermine it. But, if you want it to, then Ill say congratulations. LOL.
I don’t know what countries did start off in Rebellion, I was talking about this country, since I know about its Past, its present and the potential future. If you know the answer then let me know.
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