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  #1  
Old 03-28-2019, 07:42 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Adultery vs Fornication

Adultery vs Fornication
Brothers, Sisters and "Pentecostals Apostolics"
How you see and what your Church practising according to second Marriages and divorce?
Well i believe that according to the Bible there is not excuse for justify 2nd marriage, even with the so called "exception" of Matthew 19:9.
He did not said " 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
They justify divorce and 2nd marriage by interpret the word FORNICATION as ADULTERY! However i think there are many within those groups that dont do that.
Fornication = sexual sin out of marriage, single persons can do fornication
Adultery =Sexual sin within marriage, when one of the couple leaves the other member to marry an other, or if they broke up and then marry an other, or when one of the two having sex with an other ,then is called adultery.
Thoughts? (and again sorry for my bad English)
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Old 03-28-2019, 08:21 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the basis of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
Matthew 19:9 LEB
https://bible.com/bible/90/mat.19.9.LEB
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Old 03-29-2019, 03:17 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the basis of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
Matthew 19:9 LEB
https://bible.com/bible/90/mat.19.9.LEB
Yes he did not say "except adultery" but fornication. Fornications means any sex relationship outside marriage. When two married people or one of them having sex with an other ,then he commits adultery .Or if he/she marries the other person while his/her first husband lives he/she commits adultery.
Fornication happens to single persons or unlawful marriage which is not a value marriage ,and so than you can not have adultery (which happens only within two lawful married people).
Anyway i asked if your church teaches that this is an exception for divorce and what you believe.
Thanks.

Last edited by peter83; 03-29-2019 at 03:21 AM.
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Old 04-12-2019, 05:38 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
Adultery vs Fornication
Brothers, Sisters and "Pentecostals Apostolics"
How you see and what your Church practising according to second Marriages and divorce?
Well i believe that according to the Bible there is not excuse for justify 2nd marriage, even with the so called "exception" of Matthew 19:9.
He did not said " 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
They justify divorce and 2nd marriage by interpret the word FORNICATION as ADULTERY! However i think there are many within those groups that dont do that.
Fornication = sexual sin out of marriage, single persons can do fornication
Adultery =Sexual sin within marriage, when one of the couple leaves the other member to marry an other, or if they broke up and then marry an other, or when one of the two having sex with an other ,then is called adultery.
Thoughts? (and again sorry for my bad English)
The word "fornication" which refers to ANY unlawful sex, including adultery. Since it is a wife that has committed the act, it is adultery.
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  #5  
Old 04-12-2019, 08:19 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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a mini-testimony

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
Thoughts?
You are correct. While this has been long understood in some Mennonite and holiness circles, the last few decades has seen the large-scale rebellion.

And often the churches have become havens for spouse-swapping, and various adulterous relationships. As declared by the pure Bible and the words of the Lord Jesus. These sins are given the ok. (Even my friends at Homestead Heritage have stumbled in this area, as they have become more a yahweh-yahshua fellowship than the Christian foundations of yore. Their five-fold ministry actually gave them some resistance to this error, see below.)

And I learned much more about the marriage permanence movement about a year and a half ago, from a combination of sources, some oneness. Some dear friends in Jerusalem as well, who I had not seen for about 15 years. And they shared diligently, faithfully, in a timely manner.

Thank you, Lord Jesus.

And help me to have an ear to hear and learn from the pure word of God. May my walk and doctrines always be informed by your word, and give me the strength and understanding and direction and holy honor not to try to deform your word to my preferences.

An Ethiopian brother, oneness, had shared this with me long ago, and I had scoffed, considering it quite flaky. Earlier this year the Lord Jesus gave me the opportunity to talk to him, and sincerely and deeply apologize, and thank him, and smile and hug. And appreciate his faithfulness.

======================

Peter, there is a spiritual component to all this, so do not be too concerned about the wide variety of disagreements. Just walk in holiness and faith, and go into dialog only when there seems to be a deep sincerity.

One point, the biblical idea of fornication should include only wayward actions where neither one is in a covenant Godly one-flesh marriage. (And such a marriage remains till death does it part, secular papers are not relevant, nor are various stumbles.) This agrees with what you have written, although I have added a bit.

The pastor hegemony concept has contributed to the spiritual paralysis. Now that the churches have sterling members that are in adulterous relationships, holiness may cause many to depart. This can mean a substantial loss of lucre. And the pastor knows the rules, for the wise men and fools. He knows his organization allows loosey-goosey, and budgets are tight.

It is understandable that individuals and couple are often not too happy to hear that their current "marriage" is, before God, an adulterous affair.

======================

Yours in Jesus,
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 04-12-2019 at 08:56 PM.
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  #6  
Old 04-13-2019, 03:42 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
The word "fornication" which refers to ANY unlawful sex, including adultery. Since it is a wife that has committed the act, it is adultery.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. so no! The only meaning of Fornication is every sexual relationship between no married people.
It did not said "to avoid Marriage" but to avoid Fornication.
(also of the adultery was a ticket for second marriage, why then Jesus said that for any other reason is adultery? Every man or woman who is so hard-hearted and divrses ,He does for marry an other one. Son then all second marriages were permitted.?)
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  #7  
Old 04-13-2019, 03:52 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: a mini-testimony

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
You are correct. While this has been long understood in some Mennonite and holiness circles, the last few decades has seen the large-scale rebellion.

And often the churches have become havens for spouse-swapping, and various adulterous relationships. As declared by the pure Bible and the words of the Lord Jesus. These sins are given the ok. (Even my friends at Homestead Heritage have stumbled in this area, as they have become more a yahweh-yahshua fellowship than the Christian foundations of yore. Their five-fold ministry actually gave them some resistance to this error, see below.)

And I learned much more about the marriage permanence movement about a year and a half ago, from a combination of sources, some oneness. Some dear friends in Jerusalem as well, who I had not seen for about 15 years. And they shared diligently, faithfully, in a timely manner.

Thank you, Lord Jesus.

And help me to have an ear to hear and learn from the pure word of God. May my walk and doctrines always be informed by your word, and give me the strength and understanding and direction and holy honor not to try to deform your word to my preferences.

An Ethiopian brother, oneness, had shared this with me long ago, and I had scoffed, considering it quite flaky. Earlier this year the Lord Jesus gave me the opportunity to talk to him, and sincerely and deeply apologize, and thank him, and smile and hug. And appreciate his faithfulness.

============================================

Peter, there is a spiritual component to all this, so do not be too concerned about the wide variety of disagreements. Just walk in holiness and faith, and go into dialog only when there seems to be a deep sincerity.

One point, the biblical idea of fornication should include only wayward actions where neither one is in a covenant Godly one-flesh marriage. (And such a marriage remains till death does it part, secular papers are not relevant, nor are various stumbles.) This agrees with what you have written, although I have added a bit.

The pastor hegemony concept has contributed to the spiritual paralysis. Now that the churches have sterling members that are in adulterous relationships, holiness may cause many to depart. This can mean a substantial loss of lucre. And the pastor knows the rules, for the wise men and fools. He knows his organization allows loosey-goosey, and budgets are tight.

It is understandable that individuals and couple are often not too happy to hear that their current "marriage" is, before God, an adulterous affair.



======================

Yours in Jesus,
Steven
Hi, is very interested if you read some documents of the churches were formed at Azzuza street!
They were commanded the second times married couples to brake their adulterous marriage because were not valid!
Now i want to ask you something, if you know:
We know that there is no way dor a divorced saint to marry an other man-woman.
But what happens when two people who are married even two or three times in the world ,are coming to Christ as a couple?
There is two opinions :
1) they must brake up because their marriage is not valid and still in adultry.
2) God accepts them like they are, because they were already married when He called them
What do you know about this? I see the two possibilities correct but i dont know which is the truth.
Thank you brother. May the Lord gives you always His knowledge in Truth and Love.
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Old 04-13-2019, 05:45 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: a mini-testimony

Good question, Peter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
Hi, is very interested if you read some documents of the churches were formed at Azzuza street! They were commanded the second times married couples to brake their adulterous marriage because were not valid!
Thanks, that is good to know. I should search out some documentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
Now i want to ask you something, if you know:
We know that there is no way dor a divorced saint to marry an other man-woman.
But what happens when two people who are married even two or three times in the world ,are coming to Christ as a couple?
There is two opinions :
1) they must brake up because their marriage is not valid and still in adultry.
2) God accepts them like they are, because they were already married when He called them
What do you know about this? I see the two possibilities correct but i dont know which is the truth.
Thank you brother. May the Lord gives you always His knowledge in Truth and Love.
There is one step that must come forth before any action is taking.

It has to be determined, as best as possible, whether there is a one-flesh covenant spouse. Remember, sometimes a person's first "marriage" is itself adultery, not a marriage, because they married a non-eligible divorcee.

If all that is done, and there is a covenant spouse, and it is clear that they are now in adultery, I do not believe that (2) is any more possible than for any other sin, like sodomy, to continue. The adultery does not get "fixed" by the passing of a year, or the birth of a child, or changing or tweaking of faith, or false vows being made, or anything temporal. There is a covenant spouse, alive, and standing for that marriage is the proper path.

What I am sharing is the pure marriage permanence perspective, in harmony with the word of God. Many would rather hear the excuses why it is all ok now. Each person is accountable for their own determination and walk.

Granted, this would be easier if the church on the whole was walking on the straight and narrow.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 04-13-2019 at 05:50 PM.
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  #9  
Old 04-13-2019, 11:35 PM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: a mini-testimony

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Good question, Peter.

Thanks, that is good to know. I should search out some documentation.

There is one step that must come forth before any action is taking.

It has to be determined, as best as possible, whether there is a one-flesh covenant spouse. Remember, sometimes a person's first "marriage" is itself adultery, not a marriage, because they married a non-eligible divorcee.

If all that is done, and there is a covenant spouse, and it is clear that they are now in adultery, I do not believe that (2) is any more possible than for any other sin, like sodomy, to continue. The adultery does not get "fixed" by the passing of a year, or the birth of a child, or changing or tweaking of faith, or false vows being made, or anything temporal. There is a covenant spouse, alive, and standing for that marriage is the proper path.

What I am sharing is the pure marriage permanence perspective, in harmony with the word of God. Many would rather hear the excuses why it is all ok now. Each person is accountable for their own determination and walk.

Granted, this would be easier if the church on the whole was walking on the straight and narrow.
Thank you.
Yes , i hope Jesus will (and does) restores His Church.
(there are 2 voices , that call for Unity (did you observe?) .The 1st calls for a unity with no emphasis on doctrine and the 2nd calls a unity of those who are coming back to the Doctrines given by Jesus and the Apostles. I hope God opens our eyes !
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  #10  
Old 04-14-2019, 04:38 PM
Birddog Birddog is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

This seems more of a discussion on divorce and remarriage instead of adultery and fornication.

Check out the Greek word for fornication.

G4202
πορνεία
porneia
por-ni'-ah
From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.

This word comes from:

G4203
πορνεύω
porneuō
porn-yoo'-o
From G4204; to act the harlot, that is, (literally) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (figuratively) practise idolatry: - commit (fornication).

We know this word in the English as porn, or any variation of it. It means to partake of unlawful lust, or the acting of the harlot.

Fornication can be as simple as looking at porn according to the Bible.

Adultery is mixing in the marriage covenant to this perversion.
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