Those After the Spirit

[Amanah]

I have made so many mistakes in my life that I don't trust myself without the leading of the Spirit.

In morning devotions I ask God to lead, guide, and direct my paths even in the smallest of things. Throughout the day I keep talking to Him and asking for direction.

I used to pray over the big decisions and then felt that God had given me the common sense to handle the smaller things myself. I have realized that God is infinite, all mighty, all powerful. He is able to run the universe and still help me figure out how to solve a problem I am having on my job.

When I was driving to work this morning I was thinking of the classic movie *It's a Wonderful Life.* Our lives and even everyday decisions matter in that they effect people for eternity. Where we go, who we talk to, how we conduct ourselves are of great importance.

I want to be careful to obey even in the smallest of things. I may be tired after a long day at work, but if I stop at the store can I remember to be kind to the cashier and show her the love of God? Can I be sweet and respectful to my husband even when I come home and he has the house in a mess?

Obedience in even the smallest of things is important to the Lord and it can't be achieve without living and walking in the Spirit.

[mfblume]

Romans 6 through 8 reminds us, or introduces us (whatever the case may be), that a life governed by rules does not work and the new covenant is about the Spirit governing our lives instead.

I noticed that when Paul described a life that is governed by rules of the Law of the Old Covenant, he mentioned good and evil over and over again. He said the law was ordained to give life but he found it to give death. But he clarified it saying the law was not the problem as though it was bad. It was holy and great! But man who has sin in his flesh cannot keep it. There is a clash between the sin in our flesh and the law. In order to deal with that clash and still get man to attain the righteousness that the Law was meant to bring man into, God did what the law could not do. It condemned the condemner.

The condemnation in Romans 8 :1 is not hell and being lost. According to the context of chapter 7 that leads us to the note about condemnation in 8:1, the condemnation can only be that which results from the frustration of trying to do good and failing to do it through works of the law.

The repeated reference to good and evil speaks of the fruit of the knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL. Law is a perfect fulfillment of that tree. Like Paul discovered, LAW KILLS. Again, this does not mean the law is bad. God even planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not the devil.

Jesus came to give Life. Not knowledge of good and evil.

I find it interesting, though not to heap condemnation when I say this, that those who keep sabbath and other similar laws of Old Covenant life, because they think it's a sin not to, and cannot see that Christ is the actual sabbath, are people who cannot see the point of the Spirit's ability to lead and govern a person's life. They faithfully come to the same conclusion that Paul ensured people not come to when they read his words about the Spirit. They think we are given license to sin if we say we are not live lives governed by Law. Paul constantly corrected that error, because he, too, was accused of that.

Romans 6:1 KJV What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:15 KJV What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 7:7 KJV What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 7:13 KJV Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

These are the very things people accuse us of saying when we propose we are freed from the law so we can live righteously by governance of the Spirit instead.

One minister said that if you are not falsely accused of taking license to sin, then you likely are not preaching the true revelation of Spirit governance like Paul did. In other words, fleshliness abounds in lives that are governed by the Law, and these people SIMPLY WILL NOT GET IT when we say we do not have license to sin, for the Spirit does not lead anyone to sin.

Some might ask, "What about the Word? If we are not governed by rules , does that not mean the word is tossed out? After all, the Word states things are sins and we must not commit them."

The Word of God describes what is sin and what is not. And though we are not meant to govern our lives by Rules, if the Spirit is leading and governing our lives, we will not violate what the word says we must not violate.

After all the Spirit and the Word Agree. The point is the means of making ourselves keep rules does not work. When the Spirit leads us to live a certain lifestyle, we will find the law has nothing to say against it!

Galatians 5:22-23 KJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And Paul stated that in Galatians after speaking of our need to walk in the Spirit so we don't fail.

The same righteousness the law tried to lead man into is the righteousness we receive by grace through faith. They're not different righteousnesses. But at the same time we cannot confuse the means toward righteousness that was in the Law and not distinguish it from the actual goal of righteousness.

I don't think anyone touched by legalism can grasp this. Not that they're incapable. They just would not be legalistic if they ever saw it.

[mfblume]

This has been addressed many times, but the argument still flares up that claims Paul stated nobody can have victory to totally live a clean and holy life.

Another alternative position, that is just as mistaken, claims that Paul explained the life of a SINNER alone, and not someone born again.

Both are a gross misunderstanding of the following words:

Romans 7:14-24 KJV For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The reason this can both apply to a believer, and also NOT be syaing that nobody can live a totally righteous life is due to the following words:

Romans 7:24-8:3 KJV O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Proof Paul did not speak of a futile effort to live above sin:

In order for Paul to state, "There is therefore no condemnation...", in 8:1 we must understand that the word he used, "therefore," indicated the words that follow are the result of what he just stated immediately beforehand.

After describing efforts to do good and then failing, he emotionally writes, "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He answers that very question in the the next three words. "I thank God." God shall deliver.

He then summarized what he explained in verse 18 by saying with the mind he served the Law of God. His full intention to serve God by law-keeping was perfect. He lacked no desire at all. But he added the ability to carry out that obedience in actual lifestyle was not found in him.

Here is where the word, "therefore," comes into play.

Because one has a desire to serve God's law with the mind, putting the mind in perfect harmony with God's desires, but the flesh is unable to carry those intentions out, there is a solution God has provided. If the flesh is what is being relied upon to perform the good deeds of the law, and failure is always the conclusion, then stop walking after that flesh.

We have to work with the manner of speaking Paul used. This is where everyone who thinks Paul spoke of a futile effort to serve God perfectly confuse things.

We need to learn what Paul meant when he said "walk not after the flesh."

Romans 8:1 KJV There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The reference to walking after the flesh is taking the term "flesh" from what Paul just wrote in 7:25. With the FLESH Paul could only see himself serve the law of sin. All of what Paul wrote from verse 14 to verse 24 is what he described as "walking after the flesh."

He spoke of serving God "with the flesh."

Put all of this together and ask yourself what could the phrase "walk after the flesh" mean.

It's the same flesh that housed sin.

Romans 7:18 KJV For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

So, trying to serve God's law WITH THE FLESH can only mean an effort used to serve God that was sure to fail because of the presence of sin in the flesh.

And all of this was said after he noted he found the Law of God to administer death instead of life when he set out to obey the Law of God. He explained it was not Law's fault. Nothing was wrong with Law. But look at where he pointed as the culprit of the problem.

Romans 7:12-14 KJV Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. (14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul was the problem. he was sold under sin. Now, this is where others claim Paul was not talking about the struggles Christians can face. They are wrong. Being sold under sin is not what they think it is. in order for Paul to endeavour to serve God by law-keeping, and then find that sin rose up to kill his efforts every time, is to describe a METHOD that causes one to put oneself IN BONDAGE.

it is the putting of oneself into bondage that is the reality of his reference to being sold under sin.

It's amazing how Galatians mirrors this portion of Romans so well. And we have to turn there, for Galatians is DEFINITELY dealing with born again people and their struggles. If we can see how the same thing Paul dealt with in Galatians applies to the issue of Romans 7, then we can realize Paul indeed did describe the plight, of born again believers, and it is true to say we can SELL OURSELVES UNDER SIN unintentionally.
[indent]Galatians 5:16-18 KJV This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. (18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.[indent]

He explained walking in the Spirit causes us to be free of the failure of living to the lusts of our flesh. And he indicated it was something we must consciously do. Whatever it means to walk in the Spirit is the answer to a life that is plagued by living for toward the lusts of the flesh.

That is the same issue Paul spoke of in Romans 7.

Compare:

Galatians 5:17 KJV For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Romans 7:15-19 KJV For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Who can say after reading this that Galatians is not dealing with the same problem that Romans 7 is? And Galatians is talking about born again people's problems.

continued...

[mfblume]

Both passages speak of living a life incapable of resisting lusts, and both also speak of a "WALK" that is required.

Compare:

Romans 8:1 KJV There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16 KJV This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

The condemnation noted in Romans 8:1 is the condemnation one feels when one wants to do right but instead finds oneself being unable to accomplish it.

it's the condemnation that one finds oneself under when one experienvces this:

Romans 7:15-18 KJV For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

It's the condemnation that makes one scream the following...

Romans 7:24 KJV O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

And all of that condemnation that comes when one uses the flesh to serve God, and as a result fails, is AVOIDED if we walk after the Spirit and NOT after the flesh.

After Paul stated there are two ways to serve God -- oldness of the letter and newness of Spirit (7:6) -- he then described trying to serve God by keeping the commandments:

Romans 7:6 KJV But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 7:7-11 KJV What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. (9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So walking after the flesh is trying to serve God by law-keeping. After all, one makes the decision to obey the law, and then forces one's will on one's fleshy to carry out that obedience. THAT is what it means to walk after the flesh according to Romans 8:1.

When Paul said we must not walk after the flesh in order to avoid condemnation, he was talking about ceasing to serve God by the method of LAW-KEEPING.

Sop, when we continue reading Romans 8, whenever we come across efforts of the flesh, we are meant to understand he spoke about efforts of LAWKEEPING.

Romans 8:4-8 KJV That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul was actually explaining that when we utilize the flesh to serve God by obeying commandments, we are walking after the flesh and minding the things of the flesh.

Don't believe it? Look at his terminology here:

Colossians 2:20-3:4 KJV (20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (21) (Touch not; taste not; handle not; (22) Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? (23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (3:1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. (3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

He spoke of being religiously incorrect and trying to serve God by what he called "rudiments of the world." Rudiments are necessary and good BASICS. ELEMENTS. He was not speaking of false religion whatsoever. He was speaking of OLD COVENANT LAWKEEPING. When one refers to RUDIMENTS and ELEMENTS, one is referring to good and necessary components that make up and form a foundation for everything to follow. For example, the elements of the periodic table are the basic break-down components that make up everything that materially exists. They're not FALSE components, like people who misunderstand the reference to rudiments believe the term refers to false teachings from pagans. They are NECESSARY AND GOOD bases.

But those RUDIMENTS and ELEMENTS are only bases. They are not the more elaborate and complex realities we're meant to be involved with. Like kids playing with ABC blocks to familiarize themselves with the alphabet so eventually they will develop and WRITE AND READ BOOKS, the ritualistic laws that legalists keep are bases that familiarize us with the concepts that God wants us to graduate into that deal with CHRIST and the Kingdom of God.

He is telling us to toss the ABC building blocks of rituals and sabbaths and feasts and get the more complex graduation realities of CHRIST AND THE KINGDOM.

The ABC blocks are not sinful. They're just for KINDERGARTENERS!

[mfblume]

The Book of Colossians explained that those in Christ have died to the basic ABC blocks of lawkeeping that comprise a lifestyle of living BELOW and not having been RAISED with Christ. The HIGHER things are not "Don't do this, or don't touch that, or don't' taste this." All regulations of lawkeeping. Things we should be focused on include righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. That's from Romans 14:17, and shows a connect ion to Colossians 2-3, just like Galaaains 5 is connected to Romans 7 through 8.

Colossians 2:20-3:2 KJV (20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (21) (Touch not; taste not; handle not; (22) Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? (23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (3:1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Colossians 3:12-15 KJV Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; (13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. (14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. (15) And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.


Romans 14:17-20 KJV For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (18) For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. (19) Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. (20) For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

[mfblume]

One of the most neglected aspects of Spirit-led living seems to be control over one's spirit and victory over the flesh. Yet it is detailed more times than what we seem to otherwise think Spirit-led living highlights.

Col 2 says we are not under law and elements or rudiments of the world any more, but Col 3 says we're raised with Christ above those things and are to instead focus on spiritual issues rather than natural ones. This is also the contrast between law and grace. Natural versus spiritual emphasis.

Col 3 goes on to say that the issues we need to focus on, that are spiritual, are forgiveness, love, ,,,, "beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; "

It is natural and fleshly to want to think of natural focus of Spirit-leading on things like people being physically healed, etc. But there is the victory in the soul... the emotions and temperament of a person. Proverbs repeats how victory over the spirit is greater than conquering natural cities. This victory over spirit is over anger, jealousy, and begrudgingness.

The further along in Christ I get, the more I realize these things mark a truly mature Spirit-led life.

I recall an oldtimer in Christ being so meek to be humble enough to apologize, which is not really common. At the same time, however, he couldn't control his anger and would have to engage his gift of apologizing constantly. And it seemed these brethren learned to live with that sort of thing, and expected no more than repenting and getting forgiveness as the extent of their victory.

These are the things Spirit-filled teachings should focus on MORE THAN ANYTHING! It is truly being Spirit-led to be Christlike when we get victory over our flesh.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

One of the most neglected aspects of Spirit-led living seems to be control over one's spirit and victory over the flesh. Yet it is detailed more times than what we seem to otherwise think Spirit-led living highlights.

Col 2 says we are not under law and elements or rudiments of the world any more, but Col 3 says we're raised with Christ above those things and are to instead focus on spiritual issues rather than natural ones. This is also the contrast between law and grace. Natural versus spiritual emphasis.

Col 3 goes on to say that the issues we need to focus on, that are spiritual, are forgiveness, love, ,,,, "beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; "

It is natural and fleshly to want to think of natural focus of Spirit-leading on things like people being physically healed, etc. But there is the victory in the soul... the emotions and temperament of a person. Proverbs repeats how victory over the spirit is greater than conquering natural cities. This victory over spirit is over anger, jealousy, and begrudgingness.

The further along in Christ I get, the more I realize these things mark a truly mature Spirit-led life.

I recall an oldtimer in Christ being so meek to be humble enough to apologize, which is not really common. At the same time, however, he couldn't control his anger and would have to engage his gift of apologizing constantly. And it seemed these brethren learned to live with that sort of thing, and expected no more than repenting and getting forgiveness as the extent of their victory.

These are the things Spirit-filled teachings should focus on MORE THAN ANYTHING! It is truly being Spirit-led to be Christlike when we get victory over our flesh.

[TJJJ]

The whole idea of phariseeism was the physical.

That is one reason that they hated Jesus so much was He came and began to tear down their ideas of physical holiness.

He stated that adultery started in the mind, versus just the act.

He called them whitened graves, full of death.

The pharisees loved the physical but rejected the idea of the spiritual.

We see this idea today with many aspects of Christianity, I am glad Mike that you see that.

When we can step away from the physical in one area then we might be able to see more in another.

Great thread.