7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believers

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

An additional note:

Brother Blume used a side argument that Sabbath keeping was only obligatory under the law, that prior to then it was never commanded. But he never really fleshed this out so I never really delved into that.

But, I think it can be shown that the opposite is in fact the case. I started a short lived thread on Genesis and the Law,
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=53035 which included these observations:





In addition, the Sabbath is referenced in Genesis 2:2-3, then afterward we hear about the Garden, and Adam placed there to keep it (do work), and him being given a wife (helper, to help him do his work). Considering Jesus said God made the Sabbath for man (Adam), it is highly likely that Adam would have been aware of the sanctity of the Sabbath, and likely kept it (or would have, depending on how long he was in the Garden).

He was the sin of God, made in His image. God planted a garden if you will (Creation) and managed it, and sanctified the seventh day. Adam is put in a Garden to keep it. A "son of" isn't just a descendant physically (or by creation), but also by imitation (John 8:42, 1 Peter 3:6, Isaiah 51:1-2). So it would be expected that Adam would both know about and honour the Sabbath.

Furthermore, Israel kept the Sabbath prior to the covenant being made (Ex 16). Also, the Fourth Commandment is a command to remember the Sabbath day, clearly implying it had been forgotten (likely during their stay in Egypt, which was an occasion for lapsing into idolatry, see Ezek 20:6-8).

All of this, and more actually, indicates the Sabbath was in operation as a moral obligation prior to Sinai.

Fourth paragraph should read "He was the son of God" not "sin of God". Caught it too late to edit.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I think Tithesmeister was arguing it was only obligatory under the law, and he was honest enough to recognize that would necessarily mean all Ten were likewise only obligatory under the law. Thus he said he didn't believe any of them were binding or obligatory to anyone living today.

Just to clarify. I do believe that none of the Ten Commandments are obligatory for us today. The reason I believe that is because the Sinaitic covenant was NEVER obligatory to Gentiles. Esaias, if you can produce scripture saying that the Ten Commandments were for Gentiles, please do so. Moses said it was for Israelites only. I have posted the scripture. It is really simple. The covenant was never for Gentiles. If you were a gentile living the day God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses, they didn’t apply to you. Neither have they beforehand, neither have they afterwards. If you were an Israelite, they did apply to you of course. UNTIL the Old Covenant ended. Which was about two thousand years ago.

Originally Posted by Esaias

To avoid the necessary conclusion of antinomianism, he then argued the new testament constituted a new legislation, where nine of the ten commandments (plus others) were repeated, but the fourth was not, thus the fourth was no longer obligatory for anyone as it had not been relegislated.

Not that it had been re-legislated, but that it simply never applied to Gentiles. The Old Covenant never did apply to us.

Esaias, what date did the old covenant begin applying to Gentiles? Could you be specific? Was it when Moses came down the mountain with the Ten Commandments? Was it after the crucifixion of Jesus? Was it before God gave Moses the Ten Commandments? When did it happen?

Originally Posted by Esaias

But as I pointed out, the new testament is not a replacement "book of the law", rather it affirms the universality of prior divine law. Otherwise, only Christians are obligated to do anything, heathens cannot possibly commit sin and thus are not even in need of pardon. Which is obviously incorrect. Therefore the new replacement legislation idea is incorrect.

You are getting a bit broad in your definition now. Keeping the Sabbath was a specific law included in the Ten Commandments. It was part of the Mosaic law. You have given no scriptural evidence that the Mosaic law applied before Moses. You say things like it is likely. I have given scripture that shows it didn’t exist before Moses. Your doctrine appears to be that the law of Moses was the same as before Moses, in which case, why have the Mosaic law?

On the other end, when the old covenant ended, you seem to say that it didn’t really end. Some parts did, while others didn’t. Paul spoke specifically of the Ten Commandments ending. I posted the scripture. You denied he was referring to the Ten Commandments. Any reasonable person would agree that it did.

I understand that many people believe that the Ten Commandments are for us today. I just don’t see ANY scripture that says so. Somebody help me out. I believe it is a false doctrine that many people happen to believe because they have been taught to believe it.

[Esaias]

Tithesmeister, what law were non Israelite gentiles under prior to the coming of Christ?

[Esaias]

On the other end, when the old covenant ended, you seem to say that it didn’t really end. Some parts did, while others didn’t. Paul spoke specifically of the Ten Commandments ending. I posted the scripture. You denied he was referring to the Ten Commandments. Any reasonable person would agree that it did.

First, I have never said or implied the Old Covenant did not end, nor that it only ended in part. You do not seem capable of understanding what I have been saying from day one. I tried to point you to the fact you are confusing the law covenant with the commandments, statutes, judgments of God. Your error is very common. It is also easily rectified.

Second, Paul never said the Ten Commandments ended. How many "reasonable persons" in the history of Christianity have "seen" what you claim "any reasonable person" would see? Only antinomians claim the Ten Commandments ended. Practically EVERYBODY acknowledges the Ten Commandments as universal moral obligations existing from time immemorial and continuing at least until after Judgment Day, when man's nature is reformed to such a degree as to render them no longer suitable (which is a debatable point anyway).

What any reasonable person can see is you have no rational basis for moral obligation in your scheme of doctrine. As I have repeatedly shown.

[Esaias]

Keeping the Sabbath was a specific law included in the Ten Commandments. It was part of the Mosaic law. You have given no scriptural evidence that the Mosaic law applied before Moses. You say things like it is likely. I have given scripture that shows it didn’t exist before Moses.

You have proven no such thing. The COVENANT did not exist before Sinai but GOD'S COMMANDMENTS, STATUTES, AND JUDGMENTS MOST CERTAINLY DID.

Otherwise, nobody could have committed sin prior to Sinai, nor could anyone but Israelites under the Covenant commit sin, because sin is transgression of the law and where there is no law THERE IS NO SIN.

[Esaias]

Your doctrine appears to be that the law of Moses was the same as before Moses, in which case, why have the Mosaic law?

The error here can be easily seen. It pretends that prior to Moses giving instruction to Israel, nobody heard of such things, and were under no obligation to do anything Moses (later, at Sinai) said to do.

Which of course means that prior to Sinai murdering your children as whole burnt offerings to an idol (like, say, Molech) was never known by man to be sinful.

Yet, all through Genesis, God judges people and nations for violations of the laws Moses gave to Israel. In fact, Leviticus 18:24-30 shows the "law of Moses" was simply a codification of pre existing divine law. That's why it was called TORAH, or "instruction", because Moses was instructing Israel in the ways of God, which have been from the beginning.

If it has ALWAYS been wrong to worship idols, fornicate, commit adultery, steal, murder, etc, it can only because there has always been MORAL LAW given by God.

Man knew God once, knew His ways, but turned and fell into wickedness. And thus JUDGED GUILTY OF SIN. Israel, upon being redeemed, was INSTRUCTED in God's ways, and was meant to teach the nations God's ways (Deut 4:5-8). This is in fact the Great Commission, to disciple the nations under Messiah to be obedient to Him, because not only is He God in the flesh but He is THE WORD MADE FLESH, He is the Life, the Truth, and THE WAY, He is the correct interpreter and explainer of God's ways ("Master" and Shepherd/Pastor, Chief Bishop, King, High Priest, etc).

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Tithesmeister, what law were non Israelite gentiles under prior to the coming of Christ?

Perhaps every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Deuteronomy 12

[8] Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

This is what God said the Israelites did before He delivered the Mosaic law.

Which, come to think of it, is a pretty good indication that they were NOT following the Mosaic law before God gave it to Moses.

Does the Mosaic law say that every man should do that which is right in his own eyes? No, of course not. I didn’t think so.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your doctrine appears to be that the law of Moses was the same as before Moses, in which case, why have the Mosaic law?

The error here can be easily seen. It pretends that prior to Moses giving instruction to Israel, nobody heard of such things, and were under no obligation to do anything Moses (later, at Sinai) said to do.

Which of course means that prior to Sinai murdering your children as whole burnt offerings to an idol (like, say, Molech) was never known by man to be sinful.

Yet, all through Genesis, God judges people and nations for violations of the laws Moses gave to Israel. In fact, Leviticus 18:24-30 shows the "law of Moses" was simply a codification of pre existing divine law. That's why it was called TORAH, or "instruction", because Moses was instructing Israel in the ways of God, which have been from the beginning.

If it has ALWAYS been wrong to worship idols, fornicate, commit adultery, steal, murder, etc, it can only because there has always been MORAL LAW given by God.

Man knew God once, knew His ways, but turned and fell into wickedness. And thus JUDGED GUILTY OF SIN. Israel, upon being redeemed, was INSTRUCTED in God's ways, and was meant to teach the nations God's ways (Deut 4:5-8). This is in fact the Great Commission, to disciple the nations under Messiah to be obedient to Him, because not only is He God in the flesh but He is THE WORD MADE FLESH, He is the Life, the Truth, and THE WAY, He is the correct interpreter and explainer of God's ways ("Master" and Shepherd/Pastor, Chief Bishop, King, High Priest, etc).

Deuteronomy 4:5-8 King James Version (KJV)

5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.

6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for?

8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Here is the scripture you referenced. If you notice the bold part, it appears that the other nations had never seen such a nation with laws and statutes such as Israel had (after Mount Sinai).

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Keeping the Sabbath was a specific law included in the Ten Commandments. It was part of the Mosaic law. You have given no scriptural evidence that the Mosaic law applied before Moses. You say things like it is likely. I have given scripture that shows it didn’t exist before Moses.

You have proven no such thing. The COVENANT did not exist before Sinai but GOD'S COMMANDMENTS, STATUTES, AND JUDGMENTS MOST CERTAINLY DID.

Otherwise, nobody could have committed sin prior to Sinai, nor could anyone but Israelites under the Covenant commit sin, because sin is transgression of the law and where there is no law THERE IS NO SIN.

God exercised judgement on His people before Sinai. Please don’t pretend that I ever said differently. Remember my post about Cain and Abel? God protected Cain FROM being killed for the murder of Abel, which is an excellent example of NOT following the Mosaic law.

Also remember my example of Tamar? She committed adultery with Judah. Under the Mosaic law, they both should have been executed for this sin. But, once again, they weren’t. God slew Tamar’s husband for being wicked, and then her brother in law for being disobedient, but Judah and Tamar , who would have been slain according to Mosaic law, were spared.

Just another indication that they did not have the SAME laws. I never said that God didn’t hold them accountable.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

God exercised judgement on His people before Sinai. Please don’t pretend that I ever said differently. Remember my post about Cain and Abel? God protected Cain FROM being killed for the murder of Abel, which is an excellent example of NOT following the Mosaic law.

Also remember my example of Tamar? She committed adultery with Judah. Under the Mosaic law, they both should have been executed for this sin. But, once again, they weren’t. God slew Tamar’s husband for being wicked, and then her brother in law for being disobedient, but Judah and Tamar , who would have been slain according to Mosaic law, were spared.

Just another indication that they did not have the SAME laws. I never said that God didn’t hold them accountable.

Cain: already addressed.

Tamar: funny you forgot to mention how Judah demanded she suffer the penalty of Leviticus 21:9.

Conclusion: your grasping at non inflatable straws is a clear sign of drowning. So sorry. Tried to throw you a life preserver but it was apparently too kosher for ya.

Translation: This thread has run its course. Long ago.