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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #21  
Old 06-20-2009, 12:17 PM
Daniel12 Daniel12 is offline
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
When I speak of "soul sleep" it means that man is a soul, a person, or a life. When he dies he ceases to live until he is given eternal life by Christ at his coming.
Okay, then I'll refer to it as "soul rest", because that's exactly how most translations would describe it. Further, I would agree with your understanding of the scripture, there's no granting of eternal life until the resurrection, and those who are resting in the Lord have not in fact received there rewards yet. I see no scriptures anywhere implying that the dead in Christ are in the presence of the Lord and his angels in heaven, thus this is only someone's extra-biblical belief, but I don't think it's serious enough to disqualify anyone from the resurrection. The Lord knows who are his, and as long as anyone is holding to and looking for the redemption of the resurrection (and yes, I mean those who have obeyed the apostles teaching on salvation), then I believe they'll be part of it. But we should be striving at all times to teach and hold beliefs that are consistent with the scriptures.

Sincerely, Daniel12
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  #22  
Old 06-20-2009, 12:21 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I was given this question many times. My opinion has always been as follows. The fact is that God created man with spirit, soul and body. God is a SPIRIT, and has not a body. For that reason God was manifest in flesh to redeem man from sin. And God created Adam to rule a physical earth in a physical body. So, creation of our physique is for the purpose of relating to a physical world that we might physically influence. Even God had to manifest in Flesh to save mankind. Why did God have to do that?

I claim that God created man to rule the physical as much as He rules the Heaven. Man is indeed the image of God. And since the physical is indeed physical, man must be physical in order to do this.

Also, knowing that God fills us with His Spirit, as much as he required Adam to ingest LIFE from the tree of life, God requires our bodies to use for HIS PURPOSE in working THROUGH and WITH US as we rule in this earth.

The reason there is a physical resurrection is because man in a physical body was meant to rule the earth, and that plan was never abandoned simply because man lost his dominion and fell into sin. Through Christ this dominion is restored, and our mortal bodies are dealt with through the provision of the cross to render them immortal when the time comes.
While I see no problem with what you wrote it is still secondary to the primary reason for a resurrection of the DEAD.

That is that they might have life again!

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor. 15:22-23

After all they wont be ruling anything if they are dead.

You actually missed the point of the question by ASSUMING that the resurrection of the DEAD means the resurrection of the physical body.

Most believers make the same mistake. Plenty of scriptures shows us eternal/immortal life is not given till the resurrection.

I Cor. 15:22-23 which I posted right here is a perfect example.

In Jesus at the resurrection mens LIVES not just their bodies will be restored.
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  #23  
Old 06-20-2009, 12:23 PM
Daniel12 Daniel12 is offline
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
The Resurrection or the first resurrection/rapture, is where we receive our glorified bodies.
Yes, there are two resurrections mentioned in Rev 20. This is the only place in the scriptures where this observed too, as I'm sure most here know. This is where the Lord chose to show us that humanity will be separated -even in their resurrection, not just in the judgment that follows- between those who are "blessed and holy", and simply "the rest of the dead". This makes very clear again that the Lord knows who are his, even when he raises them up (restores to life) again.
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  #24  
Old 06-20-2009, 12:27 PM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
While I see no problem with what you wrote it is still secondary to the primary reason for a resurrection of the DEAD.

That is that they might have life again!
It is to restore the situation of the Garden dominion. That is what I said.

Quote:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor. 15:22-23

After all they wont be ruling anything if they are dead.
Or without bodies.

Quote:

You actually missed the point of the question by ASSUMING that the resurrection of the DEAD means the resurrection of the physical body.
I do not believe I assumed this. I believe scripture only allows for this, since the soul is not dead when the body is dead. Again, I chatted about this detail before with you and someone else.

Quote:
Most believers make the same mistake. Plenty of scriptures shows us eternal/immortal life is not given till the resurrection.
It is no mistake:

1 John 5:13 KJV These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

One can only distort what John said to say differently.
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  #25  
Old 06-20-2009, 01:45 PM
Daniel12 Daniel12 is offline
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
In Jesus at the resurrection mens LIVES not just their bodies will be restored.
Yes, if I understand your intent here, we will have bodies which can never decay or die, but also we'll have complete communion in the presence of God too. As I understand the scriptures, in the age to come there will be a temple in the city of Jerusalem which the Lord will inhabit, but only the saints (the redeemed, those who are part of the first resurrection) will be permitted access to that temple. No one born in the next age will gain admission there, at least from what I understand about the kingdom. Showing this with explicit scripture requires some explaining (an interpretation on prophecy mainly), so I can't do it right now. But yes, we will indeed be fully alive at that time, and not until his coming.

Concerning some of the scriptures quoted here, 1 John is an epistle, thus it applies to the church. But it, along with verses in John's gospel are favorite ones for those who don't desire to follow the apostle's doctrine, and want to maintain that they're saved simply by mouthing words. Here's Joh 5:24 NET:

5:24 “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.

These are the favorite places such people love to quote, but they refuse to harmonize these with all scripture. Especially Mat 28:19 where the Lord told them to follow all of his commands.

When I read 1 John, it appears that John is reminding his readers to maintain their beliefs, because that is the only hope they have of gaining eternal life.The entire epistle seems to concern itself with the subject of eternal life. But even in this letter John writes 1 Joh 3:2-3 NET:

3:2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.
3:3 And everyone who has this hope focused on him purifies himself, just as Jesus is pure).

And to be like him certainly means we'll have bodies that can't die, because Christ has one now. He'll never die again. So it seems the letter is building the hope or expectation of things to come too.

Daniel12

Last edited by Daniel12; 06-20-2009 at 01:49 PM. Reason: typos, grammar
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  #26  
Old 06-20-2009, 01:53 PM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
The Resurrection or the first resurrection/rapture, is where we receive our glorified bodies.
Well yes and its also when we receive eternal life/immortality.
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  #27  
Old 06-20-2009, 03:34 PM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

1 John 5:13 KJV These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

We already have eternal life. That is plainly stated in this verse. That's all I can say about the issue. Some statements are simply too plain to be understood otherwise.
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  #28  
Old 06-20-2009, 04:10 PM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
1 John 5:13 KJV These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

We already have eternal life. That is plainly stated in this verse. That's all I can say about the issue. Some statements are simply too plain to be understood otherwise.
If we actually at this time possessed eternal life we FOR SURE would not need a resurrection because we would never die!



John is obviously refering to it in the same sense Paul does as a down payment or pledge of the rest to come.

30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph. 4:30

13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14: Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph. 1:13-14

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 06-20-2009 at 04:16 PM.
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  #29  
Old 06-20-2009, 04:17 PM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
If we actually at this time possessed eternal life we FOR SURE would not need a resurrection because we would never die!
Why think eternal life is something that is related to the body alone?
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  #30  
Old 06-20-2009, 04:21 PM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

I just came aware of this thread – excellent work here.

Reexamination of doctrines in light of scripture, rather the examination of scripture in light of doctrines. This is something that has been needed for way too long.

A couple of additional scriptures to throw into the mix, to be addressed and incorporated (integrated) into the final draft:

A question of a post-life, pre-resurrection existence:

Matthew 17:1 ¶ And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and (1) James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: (1) Or Jacob)
2 and he was transfigured before them; and his face did shine as the sun, and his garments became white as the light.
3 And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

Then speaking of John the Baptist:

Luke 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall be turn unto the Lord their God.
17 And he shall (1) go before his [Jesus’] face in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to walk in the wisdom of the just; to make ready for the Lord a people prepared for him. (1) Some ancient authorities read come nigh before his face).

Implied "continued existence" from Malachi 4:5 (3-23) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. [JPS]

There is also Revelation 6:9 ¶ And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should (1) have fulfilled their course. (1) Some ancient authorities read be fullied in number; 2 Es 4:36)

And, also all of Revelation 7, concerning the timing and inclusion of those before the throne.

Note: a side issue that may be left for another doctrinal study focusing on baptisms:

1 Corinthians 15:28, And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do that are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? [ASV]

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? [KJV]

----------------

Truly, you are all doing a wonderful job here, and I am looking forward to reading the final doctrinal statement.

So, with the addressing of a few loose ends, such as noted above, this thread should result in an outstanding doctrinal statement on the resurrection of the dead.

Again, excellent work, one and all!
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