Forgiveness or Remission?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by diakonos

But, is baptism efficacious if it is required for the forgiveness of sins, and one is baptized believing that it is done because they are already saved?

Ah, good question. I suspect that since one must "be baptized... for the remission of sins" then one probably must have some kind of idea of the purpose of baptism. Baptism that is not "for the remission of sins" isn't actually Christian baptism.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Ah, good question. I suspect that since one must "be baptized... for the remission of sins" then one probably must have some kind of idea of the purpose of baptism. Baptism that is not "for the remission of sins" isn't actually Christian baptism.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by diakonos

But, is baptism efficacious if it is required for the forgiveness of sins, and one is baptized believing that it is done because they are already saved?

I think baptism is effective regardless of when one believes the atonement is applied in the process.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Cause and effect. Faith causes us to repent and repentance means to change (change from a life of sinful disobedience, to a life of faithful obedience). Baptism is definitely part of that obedience, but is not the source of that obedience. Therefore, we are not saved because of baptism, but we are baptized because we are saved.

If that is so, that we are baptized because we are already saved, then what'e the point of baptism? Symbolic act, mere gesture, for the fun of it? And how long might a "saved" person put that baptism off, before he or she runs afoul of the Lord Jesus?

At what point do we receive forgiveness? I think it has just become a point of argument and debate. None of us will understand the full effect of that forgiveness until we are freed from this mortal body.

Brother, this is a cop-out. You may not know or understand, but if we cannot understand the full effect of our own forgiveness until we're dead, then we cannot have any assurance of our own salvation.

Philippians 3:12-14
12......Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13......Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14......I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

That is not about forgiveness of sins, but about the nature of the resurrection. Since Paul had not yet died, and been raised in the Resurrection, he could not fully speak on it as though he had already experienced it. Read verses 10 and 11, and you'll see the context is clear.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

John the Baptist commanded to bring fruit meet (acceptable) for repentance, while performing baptisms unto repentance. Therefore, baptism was a outward demonstration or production of repentance. Fruits are not the source, but grow out of the source.

John's baptism was not just a baptism unto repentance, but was a baptism unto repentance for the remission of sins:

Mark 1:4 (KJV),

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Jesus was baptized why? Did he have to be forgiven of sin?

Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

“Becometh”

Thayer Lexicon:
1. to stand out, to be conspicuous, to be eminent
2. to be becoming, seemly, fit

You answer your own question with the quotation of Matthew 3:15. Christ's baptism was to fulfill all righteousness.

Again, it is eminent that people who are “forgiven” or who are “gonna be forgiven” (whichever) to be baptized. We may not have identical understanding on this issue, but I think we are essentially on the same page. Baptism is necessary.

Brother, I do not think we are on same page. I would not trust to believe a single person who hasn't been baptized, but made a confession of faith in Christ, is saved.

The body of sins must be destroyed. Short of that, the ledger is still in the red.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Adam and Eve where expelled from the garden immediately following their sin. God did not continue that same relationship with Adam and Eve after sin entered the picture.



God also withdrew from people such as king Saul for his disobedience. The patriarchs demonstrated their week human nature at times, but overall displayed a life of faith that was evident by their obedience.



The temple was first sanctified by blood before the Lord ever filled the temple.



The churches where being warned of their present lost position with God. They where lost if they continued their course. That doesn’t sound like cohabitation with sin to me.



We can’t say that someone who has been baptized is truly rescued from the consequences of their sin debt, but they must stay the course. I don’t believe in eternal security.



The sin debt is done away with by the blood of Jesus. Baptism doesn’t put away the filth of the flesh, but is the answer of good conscious toward God.

Brother, not a single retort of yours in any way nullifies or answers anything I wrote. All I wrote, which you quoted, is absolutely true, Biblical fact, for anyone to read. God can dwell in the presence of sinful humanity, with His holiness and righteousness in no way negating the presence of that sinfulness. I think you missed or glossed over the point I made about the tendency within evangelical thinking to assume God and sin cannot be together in the same room, as it were. I showed otherwise, to prove that a person who has received the Holy Spirit, spoken in other tongues, prophesied, cast out evil spirits, done miracles, and etc. in the name of Christ, can still be lost in the final analysis.

There is therefore no proof in the Scriptures that remission needs to take place before God takes up residence in a person's heart through the Holy Spirit beforehand. Or, Paul and Peter don't agree. You chose which you think it right.

[james34]

Is repentance a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Ghost, and if so why?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by james34

Is repentance a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Ghost, and if so why?

I would say that receiving the Holy Spirit is an indication that God has granted the recipient repentance:

Acts 11:1-18 (ESV),

11 Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, 3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.” 4 But Peter began and explained it to them in order: 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision, something like a great sheet descending, being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to me. 6 Looking at it closely, I observed animals and beasts of prey and reptiles and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8 But I said, ‘By no means, Lord; for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered a second time from heaven, ‘What God has made clean, do not call common.’ 10 This happened three times, and all was drawn up again into heaven. 11 And behold, at that very moment three men arrived at the house in which we were, sent to me from Caesarea. 12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. 13 And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Apart from that, Acts 2:38 shows repentance as an imperative, along with baptism, before the gift of the Holy Spirit is offered/promised.

Acts 2:37-39 (ESV),

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

The Greek for "repent" and for "be baptized" are both in the imperative.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/2-38.htm

Repent is in the aorist imperative active, and be baptized is in the aorist imperative passive.

Being imperatives, they are therefore commands.

Acts 3:19 reads much the same way, although the promise of the Holy Spirit is not specifically mentioned, just "the times of refreshing", which I take as referring to the Holy Spirit, personally.

Acts 3:19-21 (ESV),

19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/3-19.htm

Repent is again aorist imperative active, just like Acts 2:38.

Simon Peter commands Simon Magus to repent of his wickedness, in order that the intent of his heart may be forgiven him in Acts 8:22. Certainly the need for such repentance necessarily indicates that unless and until he did, Magus would not receive the Holy Spirit the way the other Samaritans around him just did.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/8-22.htm

John proclaimed a baptism of repentance before a baptism of the Holy Spirit:

Matthew 3:2 & 11 (ESV),

2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire...(See also Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 13:24, and Acts 19:4)

Jesus proclaimed along the same lines as John:

Matthew 4:17 (ESV),

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...(See also Mark 1:15 and Luke 5:32)

Here, it must be understood that the reference to the Kingdom of Heaven/Kingdom of God falls in line with what Paul wrote in Romans 14:17:

Romans 14:17 (ESV),

17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

So, James, based off all these verses of Holy Scripture, what conclusions do you reach regarding your own question?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by james34

Is repentance a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Ghost, and if so why?

Luke 13:1-5 says without repentance, we all perish. So, I think it's related.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Brother, not a single retort of yours in any way nullifies or answers anything I wrote. All I wrote, which you quoted, is absolutely true, Biblical fact, for anyone to read. God can dwell in the presence of sinful humanity, with His holiness and righteousness in no way negating the presence of that sinfulness. I think you missed or glossed over the point I made about the tendency within evangelical thinking to assume God and sin cannot be together in the same room, as it were. I showed otherwise, to prove that a person who has received the Holy Spirit, spoken in other tongues, prophesied, cast out evil spirits, done miracles, and etc. in the name of Christ, can still be lost in the final analysis.

There is therefore no proof in the Scriptures that remission needs to take place before God takes up residence in a person's heart through the Holy Spirit beforehand. Or, Paul and Peter don't agree. You chose which you think is right.

If that is the case, repentance isn't necessary for people to be filled with the Holy Ghost. God could just randomly fills people with the baptism of the Spirit at random times thoughout their day lol. We receive forgiveness when we genuinely ask. The Holy Ghost is the seal of our betrothal. The groom doesn't put a ring on his soon-to-be wife until she has first accepted his proposal.

We respond to Gods call by repentance, and baptism will follow if the recipient is informed they need to do so.