Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Sanctuary > Deep Waters > Islamic Issues and News
Facebook

Notices

Islamic Issues and News Discuss Islam and report on current issues regarding Islam


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #491  
Old 01-13-2011, 10:13 AM
BroMatt BroMatt is offline
BroMatt


 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 89
Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

Careful reading of the link you provided shows that this sermon snippet was referring to "the vicious campaign that is attacking it". "which admits of no terrorism..." is only a denial that the acts occurring are terrorism.

Quotes from the Koran...

[59.2] He it is Who caused those who disbelieved of the followers of the Book to go forth from their homes at the first banishment you did not think that they would go forth, while they were certain that their fortresses would defend them against Allah; but Allah came to them whence they did not expect, and cast terror into their hearts; they demolished their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers; therefore take a lesson, O you who have eyes!

[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

[48.13] And whoever does not believe in Allah and His Apostle, then surely We have prepared burning fire for the unbelievers.


Al Sheikh said Islam is based on justice and equity, which admits of no terrorism, extremis and injustice.

“Islam will remain strong in the face of the vicious campaign that is attacking it,” he said. “Muslims, the dearest thing you have is your religion and your belief. ... Be proud of your religion; don’t ever be ashamed of identifying our religion.”

The "campaign" attacking it (Islam) might be referring to those that critize it.
Reply With Quote
  #492  
Old 01-14-2011, 10:53 PM
kenj kenj is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 43
Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam View Post
... JESUS himself would be tossed right off your platform and out of church functions were he to attend your church because of the beard that it is taught in the same church was plucked out for the sins of the church members.

One of many, many, many doctrines taught that have no basis in the book. Feel free to ask if you wish some more examples. On the other hand you are advised not to teach from one tongue fork that Jesus had his beard plucked for "our sins" then teach from the other tongue fork that it is a sin to have a beard

Then sing "to be like Jesus" in the same service.

Get it now?

Jesus did not assemble 12 followers then tax them with a tithe so that they could go to heaven. Does your church teach that? It is advised that you do not teach that then sing "to be like Jesus" in the same service.

Jesus did not teach a single word of how one has to "look" to go to heaven. Does your church teach that? It is advised that you do not teach that then sing "to be like Jesus" in the same service.

Jesus did not profit from his ministry on earth. Does your church profit from ministry? It is not advised to do this then sing "to be like Jesus" in the same service.

Jesus did not send his followers out with instructions on how to profit from their ministry either. Does your denomination teach that? It is not advised to do this then sing "to be like Jesus" in the same service.

I have all rights to claim that in many, many years I have never seen or heard of or heard the teachings of Jesus taught and followed but you certainly have the right to pick out the teachings of Jesus one by one and example the application of them.
Great post!!

And what an embarrassment to me as a Christian to see the mean spirited childish name-calling that people are displaying in response to Walks in Islams posts! Speaking in the name of Christ in exactly the opposite way that Christ taught!

Whether WII is being a good Muslim or not I cannot judge because I'm a Christian not a Muslim, but many of the people on this thread who are claiming to represent Christ are doing nothing of the kind.
Reply With Quote
  #493  
Old 01-16-2011, 07:27 PM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,961
Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

You are correct. How perceptive.

All you have just pointed out is that the largest gathering of of muslims worldwide was conducted and there was no mention of terrorism or extremism.

Thank you. That has been my experience with Islam. Most terrorist acts are carried out against Muslims and the majority of victims of terrorist acts are Muslims. Muslims are quite well aware of the price of terrorism though it has become quite evident that the value is based on skin color or birth orgins.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMatt View Post
Careful reading of the link you provided shows that this sermon snippet was referring to "the vicious campaign that is attacking it". "which admits of no terrorism..." is only a denial that the acts occurring are terrorism.

Quotes from the Koran...

[59.2] He it is Who caused those who disbelieved of the followers of the Book to go forth from their homes at the first banishment you did not think that they would go forth, while they were certain that their fortresses would defend them against Allah; but Allah came to them whence they did not expect, and cast terror into their hearts; they demolished their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers; therefore take a lesson, O you who have eyes!

[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

[48.13] And whoever does not believe in Allah and His Apostle, then surely We have prepared burning fire for the unbelievers.


Al Sheikh said Islam is based on justice and equity, which admits of no terrorism, extremis and injustice.

“Islam will remain strong in the face of the vicious campaign that is attacking it,” he said. “Muslims, the dearest thing you have is your religion and your belief. ... Be proud of your religion; don’t ever be ashamed of identifying our religion.”

The "campaign" attacking it (Islam) might be referring to those that critize it.
Reply With Quote
  #494  
Old 01-16-2011, 09:36 PM
BroMatt BroMatt is offline
BroMatt


 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 89
Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

Skin color and birth orgins? And then you copy what I wrote?

You can see my skin color and place of birth through the internet?

Once I was a Roman Catholic, and the history of the Roman Catholic Church is filled with the murdering of people that believed what I believe now. Though I am a Christian, yet in many places in the world I would be imprisoned or killed for what and who I am.

That being said, the founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, murdered nobody, did no military battles, and taught mercy and forgiveness, and to love your enemy.

The founder of Islam did take lifes, did run military battles, and did advocate violence against the unbeliever.

These two examples of what they did speak volumes about each of them.

Skin color and birth origin are not usually the reasons someone is killed in dealing with religious differences, but what professions and beliefs one holds are usually the offending elements.

I have called no one any names, nor have I suggested value of a person based on skin color nor birth origins.

My post quoted a few lines of the Koran that use the word terror in a positive sense. From this word comes the other word, terrorism.
Reply With Quote
  #495  
Old 01-17-2011, 05:31 PM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,961
Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

Nobody said anything specifically about you so if the glass slipper does not fit you feel free to not stuff your foot in it. Your e-tone however seems a little defensive.

Spinning off words of the Quran that are directly words of God associated with actions of God and attributing them to the actions of men is quite a stretch.

Jesus did not "found christianity". The Council of Nicea "founded christianity" and more blood has been spilled in the name of it since that time than in the name of any other cause in the world.

Were it not for the protections against persecution by the church (not the catholic church either sport) written into our constitution by our (wise and perceptive) forefathers I could be killed or imprisoned right in the USA for what I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMatt View Post
Skin color and birth orgins? And then you copy what I wrote?

You can see my skin color and place of birth through the internet?

Once I was a Roman Catholic, and the history of the Roman Catholic Church is filled with the murdering of people that believed what I believe now. Though I am a Christian, yet in many places in the world I would be imprisoned or killed for what and who I am.

That being said, the founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, murdered nobody, did no military battles, and taught mercy and forgiveness, and to love your enemy.

The founder of Islam did take lifes, did run military battles, and did advocate violence against the unbeliever.

These two examples of what they did speak volumes about each of them.

Skin color and birth origin are not usually the reasons someone is killed in dealing with religious differences, but what professions and beliefs one holds are usually the offending elements.

I have called no one any names, nor have I suggested value of a person based on skin color nor birth origins.

My post quoted a few lines of the Koran that use the word terror in a positive sense. From this word comes the other word, terrorism.

Last edited by Walks_in_islam; 01-17-2011 at 06:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #496  
Old 01-17-2011, 10:03 PM
BroMatt BroMatt is offline
BroMatt


 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 89
Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

That glass slipper reference is pretty funny, my compliments.

The council of NIcea occurred in 325 AD, as in around 300 years after Jesus walked the earth, and it founded nothing, certainly not Christianity. They were called Christians first at Antioch.

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

You may indeed believe the Koran to be words of God, I do not. You might believe that Jesus was only a prophet, in this I also disagree, He is God manifest in the flesh. It also appears that you believe that the words wrtten in the Koran have no influence over the action of the men that claim to follow the Koran, somehow that is a stretch to you, but I don't think it is.

Perhaps you would be killed or imprisoned in the USA because of what you are without the protection of the Constitution, but I am certain that in most Muslim countries in the world, I would also suffer for what I am, and perhaps be killed. Such is the nature of fanatical religious devotees, and yes, there are some that are that way yet still claim to be Christian, however Jesus never killed anybody, as I pointed out. Such can not be said for your founder.

When extreemist Muslims kill in the name of Allah, they can point back and say honestly, that they are following the prophet's established ways.

On 9/11 it was 19 Muslims that murdered many thousands, and all over the world, Muslims rejoiced in that event, so before I believe the "moderate" Muslim message, you can understand that I might take recent history into account. And yes, you do slaughter each other, and that is also a historical fact, however, claiming Islam as a peaceful religion while acknowledging that radicals in Islam murder not only unbelievers, but others that are bystanders and/or less radical, does not a peaceful religion make.
Reply With Quote
  #497  
Old 01-18-2011, 08:04 AM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,961
Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

I am certain you would not. BUT you probably have never been to a Muslim country and I have been to many so you would not know that.

Most of my neighbors are christian and here in Saudi they are left alone to do as they wish. Most have more concern (as I noted in an earlier post) with getting "special meat" from Bahrain than they are with their practice of religion.

As to what I know it is very evident that both the bible and the Quran have had their words twisted for personal gain and on both sides this twisting of words has the same outcome and it is never good for the people around them.

IF as you claim Jesus was God and manifested in the flesh stories of his wrath then are sprinkled throughout your bible and certainly the jews who killed him were left (as you often teach) with "no stone unturned" for this action. You may rephrase this killing / not killing thing as you wish but after about 70 AD I am thinking it would have been better had they left him alone. You are unfortunately trapped in your own beliefs SO you cannot say from one fork "jesus is god" and from the other "he never killed anybody". He however never one single time taught "pray to me" but certainly taught and actioned that prayers are to be directed to Allah. Perhaps to be like him one should pray as he prayed but that is just idle conjecture and then your argument of "never killed anyone" would actually be more sound and look a lot like mine. His words and his time on earth (what were saved of them) are held in quite a high esteem in Islam.

Other prophets whose words and stories are sprinkled in both the bible and Quran quite cheerfully wiped out this people and that and as I recall did so at direct direction from God.

As to your founder Constantine who set the direction for the modern church I am quite sure that historically he outkilled probably every religious fanatic who every lived or ever will live.

THAT is just an estimate.

Pleasure talking actually!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMatt View Post
That glass slipper reference is pretty funny, my compliments.

The council of NIcea occurred in 325 AD, as in around 300 years after Jesus walked the earth, and it founded nothing, certainly not Christianity. They were called Christians first at Antioch.

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

You may indeed believe the Koran to be words of God, I do not. You might believe that Jesus was only a prophet, in this I also disagree, He is God manifest in the flesh. It also appears that you believe that the words wrtten in the Koran have no influence over the action of the men that claim to follow the Koran, somehow that is a stretch to you, but I don't think it is.

Perhaps you would be killed or imprisoned in the USA because of what you are without the protection of the Constitution, but I am certain that in most Muslim countries in the world, I would also suffer for what I am, and perhaps be killed. Such is the nature of fanatical religious devotees, and yes, there are some that are that way yet still claim to be Christian, however Jesus never killed anybody, as I pointed out. Such can not be said for your founder.

When extreemist Muslims kill in the name of Allah, they can point back and say honestly, that they are following the prophet's established ways.

On 9/11 it was 19 Muslims that murdered many thousands, and all over the world, Muslims rejoiced in that event, so before I believe the "moderate" Muslim message, you can understand that I might take recent history into account. And yes, you do slaughter each other, and that is also a historical fact, however, claiming Islam as a peaceful religion while acknowledging that radicals in Islam murder not only unbelievers, but others that are bystanders and/or less radical, does not a peaceful religion make.

Last edited by Walks_in_islam; 01-18-2011 at 08:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #498  
Old 01-18-2011, 09:36 AM
BroMatt BroMatt is offline
BroMatt


 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 89
Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

Constantine, in my opinion, set a horrid example when secular government blended with religious fervor, and the results of that mess are still felt all over the world. I have no appreciation for Constantine, I see him as a brutal opportunist that took the zeal of religious fervor and used it to make his own rule more harsh and demanding. That said, I see little difference between him and your prophet, except for the timeline and the doctrines, the effect was the same, and still is the same.

If modern Islam is to renounce terrorism and murder, it finds itself in the odd position of having to renounce what the founder of that religion did. I don't really see any other valid position that can be taken, perhaps you could explain a different position.

I have not heard you try to refute that your prophet killed others, so I don't see how my position would look anything like yours.

If your prophet killed as a method of persuasion (a historical fact), how are his followers wrong to do the same thing? If it was valid for him to kill, it is also valid for you to kill, if you are a follower of his.

I did not realize you are in Saudi. I thought you were referencing the US Constitution as protecting you, however, in Saudi it would not protect you.

Though I have traveled some, my travels indeed have not taken me beyond the northern hemisphere, and have never taken me into a "Muslim" country. I have interacted with and done business with Muslims, and have sat and discussed many things, including the two major views of Islam, with 80-90% being Sunni and 10-20% being Shia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

Then there are the 2 views of the methods of persuasion used by the prophet himself...

1 When every method of persuasion (over 13 years of preaching) had failed, the Prophetsa took to the sword… that sword removed evil and mischief, the impurities of the heart and the filth of the soul. The sword did something more. It removed their blindness—they could see the light of truth—and it also cured them of their arrogance; arrogance which prevents people from accepting the truth… stiff necks and proud heads bowed with humility.

—Maulana Abul Ala Maududi

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/mna/chapter_2.html

Unlike Islam, as a Christian, I hold the bible in high regard, and while Islam might hold Jesus in high regard, I do not hold your prophet in high regard.

I do research religions, and have for decades, and those that use Christianity to steal, to oppress, and to kill do so by acting AGAINST what Jesus taught and did, and are antichrist in their behavior. Those that do the same thing using Islam are being TRUE to the teachings and deeds of the prophet, and that is the single greatest difference, in my opinion.

Those that murder and terrorise in the name of Islam do so while following the example of the prophet. Those that do the same thing in Christianity are doing the opposite of the example of Jesus.

I am firm in my beliefs, however, truth is not a weak thing, and I am willing to research any position of anyone, if they are also willing to do the same. However, sometimes a person can get something "stuck" in their mind, such as your continued references to Constantine as "my founder", which is historically inaccurate, hundreds of years out of date, and as I hope you can tell from my post, NOT held in high regard by me at all. He founded nothing but evil, and Christianity was functioning for hundreds of years PRIOR to his birth. I am hoping you can do some research and correct your thinking concerning him.
Reply With Quote
  #499  
Old 01-18-2011, 10:28 AM
BroMatt BroMatt is offline
BroMatt


 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 89
Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

I tried to delete this post, but I guess I don't know how to do that.

Last edited by BroMatt; 01-18-2011 at 10:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #500  
Old 01-18-2011, 07:47 PM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,961
Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

<grin> and I am tail-twisting in reference to Constantine and only noted this as an early example of a long, long history of christianity "turning to the sword" in order to enforce christian beliefs.

This continued until the time that the wall of separation between church and state was penned by Jefferson and exampled to the rest of the world and we can if you wish discuss religious law and even colonial religious law in our own country until that time (the US and not Saudi).

SO: We are back to earlier point that how can Jesus/God be one and on one hand the claim that the bible reflects the word/law of God with severe penalties for specific trangressions outlined in the pages (including the elimination of entire peoples) and on the other hand claim that these actions have nothing to do with Jesus at all? I am puzzled.

Islam is not terrorism and the >1 billion Muslims who practice Islam on a day to day basis are not represented by the few thousands who plan and practice it. Islam is a very simple way of life with specific requirements of prayer, conduct, and family life and violence against innocent strangers violates every spirit of those requirements.

As to the history of Islam and the Prophet kindly re-read. He and the believers in his time were living among and within an extremely pagan society and he was routinely attacked and at war until finally those who attacked him were vanquished. <grin> I would think that as a minority among the pagans this would not historically fall under the catagory as a military campaign but research on your own if you wish and make your own judgement. All history is good to know as history not learned from is often doomed to repeat.

As always, a pleasure.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Feminism Part Two Nahum Fellowship Hall 21 03-15-2011 05:22 PM
STANDARDS-The Most Important Part SarahElizabeth Fellowship Hall 5 05-04-2007 07:43 AM
Islam, a religion of peace? Sam Islamic Issues and News 4 04-26-2007 09:44 PM
Why are You a Part of Something You Hate? Nahum Fellowship Hall 94 03-22-2007 07:34 PM
Matthew 18: A Systematic Philosopy for Dealing with Humans and Error--Part One JAnderson The Library 2 03-02-2007 03:38 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.