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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #41  
Old 06-27-2008, 04:13 PM
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A.W. Bowman A.W. Bowman is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyk View Post
My mind needs a break
Me too. I have been on this forum way too long today, and far too often this past week or so. Time to take off for a while and rest.

I also have several studies that I need to get back to working on and published in a couple of other communities. AFF is a sometimes place to visit, but for serious study there are not many folks here that are really interested in openly challenging the status quo, i.e. publicly testing themselves and their teachers to see if what has been taught is truly so. It can also be called a spiritual "reality check".

My goal is to raise up those are not afraid of discovering the truth and putting it into practice. It takes courage to confront "what everyone believes to be true", because, what if something I thought I knew is not so? What then? It is at this point one's theological world comes crashing down. And, this congregational fear is legitimate, especially when one's has established their salvation of being right in their own eyes (justification according to their own understanding), rather than on maintaining a variable (dynamic and maturing) relationship with Jesus Christ.

Way too many Pentecostal Christians attend a Holy Feel-Good Church and never mature much beyond the emotional experiences found in such environments. There is no problem in attending such services! They are great! There is, however, a major problem when someone thinks that this is all that there is to living a Christian life: Being at church when ever the doors are open, running, jumping, shouting, crying, spiting and snotting, babbling incoherently, and otherwise carrying on. All things according to their appointed time and place, and in good order and decency. All rooted in love and compassion, and justice and mercy.

Enough is enough.

Take care and enjoy your walk in the Spirit.

Art
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Last edited by A.W. Bowman; 06-27-2008 at 04:22 PM. Reason: Added a commentword or two.
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  #42  
Old 06-27-2008, 06:10 PM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Bro. HaShaliach, It's clear that you know more about calenders that I do.

What we do know is that Jesus' body was placed "in the heart of the earth, at sundown, on whatever day of whatever calender anyone wants to use.

Since nobody saw Him come out of the tomb, then the only way for us to know when He came out is by reading (Matt 12:40). "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth."

He could, with His glorified body, walk through the walls, so the stone did not have to be rolled away for Him to leave the tomb. He came out, at sundown, three lunar days and nights later, ALIVE!

The opening of the tomb was ceremonial, with an earthquake, not so He could come out, but so we could see in, that the tomb was empty. When the women came, while it was still dark, the stone had already been rolled away. Jesus had been gone since sundown, the evening before.
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  #43  
Old 06-27-2008, 07:41 PM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Brother Lary -

You have made an outstanding start on the subject. So, before I leave for a while, let me address your points - and good ones they are.

First, times of day.Jesus had to be placed in the tomb prior to sundown, otherwise He would have been buried on the high Sabbath (Shabbat HaGadol).

Second, the Shabbat Hagadol was most likely not concurrent with the seventh day Shabbat.

Third, Jesus had to be in the tomb from an hour before sundown to have it counted as the first day. If there were two Shabbat that week (back to back), the first day of the week would not occur for one additional solar day.

For some excellent articles on this subject visit: http://www.community.tsiyon.org/index.php

However, these issues are an aside to the original question.

May your studies be fruitful.
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  #44  
Old 06-27-2008, 09:35 PM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Sorry, in too much of a hurry to leave.

Quickly, There is a discrepancy concerning the day of Passover, and, everything hinges on when Passover was celebrated that year. Jesus celebrated it the day before the Jews. This was most likely because, as it happened sometimes, the Sanhedrin got the start of the new month wrong (in this case a day late). So, they were a day off, which still works out for the Lamb of God. That is, he died about the time the High Priests were killing the Passover lamb at the temple.

Anyway, this is why Luke's account was somewhat different than the other writers concerning terms like "the passover" and "the passover of the Jews", etc. He was 'lookin back" from a distance of several years more than the other writers.

Also remember that Passover (Pesach) changes from year to year, which changes "Easter" and Pentecost (Shavo'ut). This year we celebrated all of these events a full month too early!

So, there are a lot of unknowns that enter into this equation. When I return, perhaps we can have a thread on the Jewish Lunar Calendar, Holidays and Celebrations. Although there is at least one other who might like to present such a study.

Shalom Aleichem
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  #45  
Old 06-27-2008, 09:50 PM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaShaliach View Post
Brother Lary -

You have made an outstanding start on the subject. So, before I leave for a while, let me address your points - and good ones they are.

First, times of day.Jesus had to be placed in the tomb prior to sundown, otherwise He would have been buried on the high Sabbath (Shabbat HaGadol).

Second, the Shabbat Hagadol was most likely not concurrent with the seventh day Shabbat.

Third, Jesus had to be in the tomb from an hour before sundown to have it counted as the first day. If there were two Shabbat that week (back to back), the first day of the week would not occur for one additional solar day.

For some excellent articles on this subject visit: http://www.community.tsiyon.org/index.php

However, these issues are an aside to the original question.

May your studies be fruitful.
I was calculating, as in Genesis, that "the evening came first first, and then the morning next, times three." No matter what the feast schedule was, the sun set in the evening and rose in the morning. Right? Or did I miss something?
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  #46  
Old 06-27-2008, 10:22 PM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

You are right on. The point being that the "day" Jesus was buried (before night fall) is counted as the first day he was in the ground. It is a Jewish time idiom for a period of time, it is not necessarily referring to a 24 hour day. Any event or activity that takes in any part of a day or night constitutes an event or activity for that day or night. It is not required to establish a particular time (by hours) period other than signifying daylight or dark.

I am not at all sure what the other point(s) may be. However, this discussion is hijacking the thread.

Off for now.

Enjoy
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  #47  
Old 09-28-2011, 11:14 PM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Klein View Post
This is part 1. The other parts follow.

There is a Sabbath Day you should be keeping! Yes, you are sinning, if you are not keeping the Sabbath Day holy!

You say ‘what’!!!!! Bruce Klein you are a New Covenant Christian; you are under the New Covenant! Why do you have to keep the Sabbath Day?

Please read my full study on the Sabbath Day before commenting.
http://www.freewebs.com/sisterphylli...sabbathday.htm


Satan’s Great Deception!
How Satan has deceived the Church
.


First
Do you keep 9 of the Ten Commandments?
Why bother with 9, if you are not going to keep all 10?

Second KJV’s deception

Acts 20:7, I Cor.16:2, John 20:19 & Hebrews 4:9 have been deliberately mistranslated to deceive YOU!

Note: Many pastors, Bible students, etc. have The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament by Jay P. Green, Sr., General Editor and Translator. Mr. Green, Sr. also has available an inexpensive yet very nice leather Bible of his English translation, complete having both the O.T. and the N.T. It is titled The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible. The address is Sovereign Grace Publishers, P.O. Box 4998, Lafayette, IN 47903. The following verses marked Jay Green are from his translation. His translation can be viewed in the On-line Bible and E-sword Bible programs. On E-sword, it is LITV.

Acts 20:7“And upon the first day of the week (G4521), when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.” Acts 20:7 King James Version
The word “week” should be translated “Sabbaths.” From Greek to English, this should be translated in the genitive plural – “of Sabbaths.” The genitive case is used to show possession.

Should be translated:“And on the first of the Sabbaths, the disciples having been assembled to break bread, being about to depart on the morrow, Paul reasoned to them. And he continued his speech until midnight.” Acts 20:7 Jay Green
“εν δε τη μια των σαββατων4521 συνηγμενων των μαθητων του κλασαι αρτον ο παυλος διελεγετο αυτοις μελλων εξιεναι τη επαυριον παρετεινεν τε τον λογον μεχρι μεσονυκτιου” Acts 20:7 Greek New Testament

Note: “And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.” Acts 20:9

Eutychus is a Greek name, which shows there was at least one Greek present in this meeting. So many, many years (30+?) after Jesus’ ascension, a Greek convert to Christianity (at least one) is keeping the Sabbath in Troas, a gentile city! Being in a gentile city, everyone in this meeting may have been a gentile except Paul! Notice they are not meeting in a synagogue! This is totally a disciple’s meeting.
So even after 30 years, the Holy Spirit is still writing about the Sabbath Day that you are not keeping.

1 Corinthians 16:2“Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.” 1 Corinthians 16:2 King James Version

Should be translated:“On one of the Sabbaths, let each of you put by himself, storing up whatever he is prospered, that there not be collections then when I come.” 1 Corinthians 16:2 Jay Green
“κατα μιαν σαββατων4521 εκαστος υμων παρ εαυτω τιθετω ο τι αν ευοδωται ινα μη οταν ελθω τοτε λογιαι γινωνται” 1 Corinthians 16:2 Greek New Testament

Note: Again, this is maybe 30 years after Jesus’ ascension. The gentiles in Corinthian are meeting on the Sabbath!

John 20:19“Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.” John 20:19 KJV

Should be translated:“Then it being evening on that day, the first of the Sabbaths, and the doors having been locked where the disciples were assembled because of fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace to you.” John 20:19 Jay Green
“ουσης ουν οψιας τη ημερα εκεινη τη μια των σαββατων4521 και των θυρων κεκλεισμενων οπου ησαν μαθηται συνηγμενοι δια τον φοβον των ιουδαιων ηλθεν ο ιησους και εστη εις το μεσον και λεγει αυτοις ειρηνη υμιν” John 20:19 Greek New Testament

Note: After Jesus’ death the Sabbath is still kept. How did the Sabbath get eliminated???

G4521 σαββατον sabbaton
Thayer Definition:
1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work: 1a) the institution of the Sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
1b) a single Sabbath, Sabbath day
Does the King James Version ever translate the Greek word “sabbaton” correctly? YES, when the translators want to, they do translate “sabbaton” correctly! Examples: Acts 13:27, 42, 44; 15:21; 16:13; 18:4


For more Biblical facts, you may wish to see my study on the Sabbath Day.
http://www.freewebs.com/sisterphylli...sabbathday.htm

Before posting, please read my study on the Sabbath Day.


Sabbat Shaloam.

In Jesus,
Brother Bruce
I tried getting this study but apparently is not there any longer.
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  #48  
Old 09-29-2011, 07:44 AM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

All things of the OT were shadows of things to come in the kingdom of God the sabbath was the rest that comes with the holy ghost, "This is the rest where with I shall cause the weary to rest".

The keeping of statutes is in the heart of the keeper.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
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  #49  
Old 09-29-2011, 08:35 AM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman View Post
You are right on. The point being that the "day" Jesus was buried (before night fall) is counted as the first day he was in the ground. It is a Jewish time idiom for a period of time, it is not necessarily referring to a 24 hour day. Any event or activity that takes in any part of a day or night constitutes an event or activity for that day or night. It is not required to establish a particular time (by hours) period other than signifying daylight or dark.

I am not at all sure what the other point(s) may be. However, this discussion is hijacking the thread.

Off for now.

Enjoy
This is exactly what I have found as well. ANY TIME during the day constitutes one day to be counted, whether at the start of a day or near the end. Bro. Bowman KNOWS this stuff as he is heavily in Messianic Judaism, or similar. Thanks, bro.!
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  #50  
Old 09-29-2011, 08:37 AM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

I just recently sent these words to someone who asked me this week about sabbath day:
Sabbath day is an issue I have long dealt with and taught. Those in
the church world who keep the seventh day Sabbath do so because they
contend that it is a memorial of creation and was not restricted under
Mosaic Law. Since it was not restricted under Mosaic Law, they claim
that Law being fulfilled does not mean Sabbath is over with as are the
other ordinances of Law.

Here is my take on the issue after having studied it since the 80's:

Sabbath is a memorial of OLD creation. We are new creatures now. Paul
gave a principle in 1 Cor 15 saying, "First that which is natural, then
afterward that which is spiritual." This means that God instituted
many natural things that were carried out physically and involved
physical nature. Sabbath day was one of them. It was a physical 24
hours that was to be kept without labour or work allowed.

It was the fourth commandment of the ten. The first three were
commandments regarding our relationship with God and the last six
regarded our relationship with each other. The fourth was different,
and was a go-between, so to speak.

Sabbath was also called a SHADOW of things to come, and the thing that
was to come was the BODY OF CHRIST.

Col 2:16-17 KJV Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath
days: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of
Christ.

Since Christ is the body of the shadow consisted of the Sabbath, then
having Christ is having the TRUE SABBATH. This is the reason Jesus
told us to come to Him and find rest. Finding SPIRITUAL rest in Jesus
is truly keeping the actual sabbath of which the sabbath day was merely
a shadow. Sabbath day was like the animal sacrifices, which were also
instituted before Mosaic Law included them. These sacrifices all
pointed to CHRIST. His single sacrifice wrapped up everything that the
various old testament sacrifices of animals stood for, but moreso than
any animal sacrifice could provide. We no longer keep natural
sacrifices since we had one great spiritual sacrifice in the form of
Jesus. Same with Sabbath day. We have the genuine sabbath when we
have Jesus, not requiring us to keep a mere day. This sabbath is an
eternal sabbath!

Romans 14 speaks of how some believers kept holy days like sabbath and
some did not. Paul said one ought not to judge the other, but let God
deal with them. But Paul spoke of sabbath keepers in the same category
as people who eat any kind of meat while others only eat herbs. He
said those who keep a day and those who eat herbs are actually "weaker
in their faith", since they are still stuck, so to speak, on natural
actions or lack thereof, to help them please God. Nothing but the
blood of Jesus can please God.

Rom 14:1 KJV Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to
doubtful disputations.

Rom 14:1-6 KJV Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to
doubtful disputations. (2) For one believeth that he may eat all
things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. (3) Let not him that
eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not
judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. (4) Who art thou
that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or
falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
(5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every
day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (6) He
that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that
regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that
eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that
eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Faith is standing on something we cannot see nor do in order to know we
please God. The just shall live by faith, not works nor refraining
from activity as on the Sabbath. Paul explained that those who are
weak in the faith require something tangible and natural in order to
appease their consciences before God. Sabbath day refraining from work
is an example of people who think they have to do this in order to
please God. But the all important truth is that one thing and one
thing only pleases God. Christ's blood.

Jesus and the disciples kept Sabbath but that was only because they
were under Law.

Gal 4:4-5 KJV But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent
forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (5) To redeem
them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of
sons.

When he was crucified, He nailed all ordinances to the cross, and
sabbath day was one of those ordinances.

Col 2:13-17 KJV And you, being dead in your sins and the
uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him,
having forgiven you all trespasses; (14) Blotting out the handwriting
of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took
it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (15) And having spoiled
principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing
over them in it. (16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in
drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the
sabbath days: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body
is of Christ.

Hebrews 4 shows us that entrance into Canaan as well as Sabbath day
were RESTS that were shadows of the actual rest that Hebrews claims
still remains open for people to enter, long after people kept sabbaths
and after Israel entered Canaan. The TRUE REST is merely foreshadowed
by the sabbath day.

Heb 4:3-9 KJV For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he
said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (4)
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And
God did rest the seventh day from all his works. (5) And in this
place again, If they shall enter into my rest. (6) Seeing therefore
it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was
first preached entered not in because of unbelief: (7) Again, he
limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time;
as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your
hearts. (8) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not
afterward have spoken of another day. (9) There remaineth therefore a
rest to the people of God.

The NEW creation is what we are a part of right now. Not the old one.
And sabbath day was a memorial of old creation. Jesus never once
commanded his disciples to keep the seventh day. Some contend that the
disciples preached on the sabbath day and attended synagogues.
However, they only did that because the synagogue on the sabbath day
was the best place to catch all Israelites at one time in one day
together so they could minister to them.

Many mistaken what Acts 15 was saying in these words:

Act 15:19-21 KJV Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them,
which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (20) But that we
write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from
fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (21) For
Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read
in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Some think this is saying they can get the rest of the commandments
from synagogues every sabbath, but that is not what they meant. they
were actually saying they had better send letters to all the gentiles
lest they be influenced by the reading of Moses in the synagogues and
think they have to do more than abstain from meat offered to idols,
blood and fornication.

More...
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