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10-16-2019, 02:57 PM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
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1 Cor 10 and other passages which speak of Christ back in Sinai etc still have His humanity in view. Not that He existed back then AS a man, but rather that the Man born in Bethlehem is the WHO that existed back then.
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Thats why I teach when Paul says the Son is the Express image of his person I point out who the Son was existing AS. The image of the invisible God.
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To call the preincarnate Word "Son" divorces Sonship from humanity. It leads to errors like saying Christ was CREATED or BEGOTTEN "in eternity past".
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And yet Paul says TWICE God made all things by HIS SON.
So Paul had no problen identifying the Son as the Logos or image before the incarnation. Matter of fact before the world.
In both of the cases he says God made all things by his Son he equates the Son with the image of the invisible God.
The image-word became the Son technically speaking at the incarnation BUT unless we want to twist what Paul specifically says theres seems to be no harm using Son and Word interchangebly.
God the omnipresent Spirit made all things by the Logos John 1:3 the image of God is the same thing in Col. 1:16, Heb 1:1-3
Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 10-16-2019 at 03:37 PM.
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10-16-2019, 03:14 PM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
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Originally Posted by Esaias
Seems like Mike would rewrite the hymn to "It's (Not Quite) All In Him... Just a part of God is in His Word space suit..."?????
Just doesn't have that old time religion feel to it that way, though.
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Col. 2:9
For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead BODILY.
This is the same way it was in the OT.
God was totally invisible as to his omnipresence yet had a bodily (but spiritual) form.
Two modes of being not two Gods.
The verse in Colossians in NOT teaching all there is of God is in the human body of Christ.
1 Tim. 6:14-16
14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.
The human (glorified) body of Jesus dwells in unapproachable light. This speaks of the omnipresent eternal spirit.
Paul says no man HAS SEEN...... OR CAN SEE this.
But all of God that CAN BE SEEN in bodily form is in Christ.
God in the present exists in two modes of being same as he did in the OT.
Visible and invisible.
1 Tim. 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.
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10-16-2019, 03:52 PM
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Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Thats why I teach when Paul says the Son is the Express image of his person I point out who the Son was existing AS. The image of the invisible God.
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this brings up an interesting question. you believe that Adam was in the image of God, as though the image was something distinct from Adam and from God, after which Adam was made. So, when it says that Jesus was made the express image of God, is that another image apart from Jesus also?
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...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Last edited by mfblume; 10-16-2019 at 04:17 PM.
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10-16-2019, 05:03 PM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
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Originally Posted by mfblume
this brings up an interesting question. you believe that Adam was in the image of God, as though the image was something distinct from Adam and from God, after which Adam was made. So, when it says that Jesus was made the express image of God, is that another image apart from Jesus also?
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Since Adam was made in the image of God, yes God had his distinct image. His image looked like the angels. Thats why he said to them:
Let us make man after our image and likeness.
The same image that would be made flesh down the road and become the man Jesus Christ.
Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 10-16-2019 at 05:36 PM.
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10-16-2019, 05:41 PM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
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Christ and the Logos is more like the PERSON through and by and as which Professor Stark has his existence.
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Of course. The Logos is personal in the OT as well as the new.
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10-16-2019, 07:28 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Thats why I teach when Paul says the Son is the Express image of his person I point out who the Son was existing AS. The image of the invisible God.
And yet Paul says TWICE God made all things by HIS SON.
So Paul had no problen identifying the Son as the Logos or image before the incarnation. Matter of fact before the world.
In both of the cases he says God made all things by his Son he equates the Son with the image of the invisible God.
The image-word became the Son technically speaking at the incarnation BUT unless we want to twist what Paul specifically says theres seems to be no harm using Son and Word interchangebly.
God the omnipresent Spirit made all things by the Logos John 1:3 the image of God is the same thing in Col. 1:16, Heb 1:1-3
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Once again, you are reading into Son your own preconceived notions, just like trinitarians do. I already explained this, I'll try once again.
Son is used in Scripture to refer to the Man from Galilee. It includes within its meaning the post-incarnate humanity, Jesus THE MAN. It HAS to, because nowhere in Scripture do we read of a Son in heaven, prior to Bethlehem, serving as a divine intermediary. The Bible explicitly declares Jesus is called Son BECAUSE of the miraculous conception in the womb of Mary. Not because of an ancient begetting as a divine skin suit in ages past.
Therefore, when Paul says all things were made by the Son he is NOT saying the Son - the HUMAN BORN OF MARY - was around in prehistory AS THE SON. He is rather saying this Man from Galilee is none other than Jehovah God our Father incarnate, the Creator of all things.
Your doctrine is in error because if the Son made ALL things, and the Son Himself was made, then the Son made the Son.
If ALL things were made by the Word, then either the Word was NOT MADE, or the Word made the Word.
Why you refuse to deal with that simple fact is anybody's guess.
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10-16-2019, 08:14 PM
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Location: Kentucky
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Once again, you are reading into Son your own preconceived notions, just like trinitarians do. I already explained this, I'll try once again.
Son is used in Scripture to refer to the Man from Galilee. It includes within its meaning the post-incarnate humanity, Jesus THE MAN. It HAS to, because nowhere in Scripture do we read of a Son in heaven, prior to Bethlehem, serving as a divine intermediary. The Bible explicitly declares Jesus is called Son BECAUSE of the miraculous conception in the womb of Mary. Not because of an ancient begetting as a divine skin suit in ages past.
Therefore, when Paul says all things were made by the Son he is NOT saying the Son - the HUMAN BORN OF MARY - was around in prehistory AS THE SON. He is rather saying this Man from Galilee is none other than Jehovah God our Father incarnate, the Creator of all things.
Your doctrine is in error because if the Son made ALL things, and the Son Himself was made, then the Son made the Son.
If ALL things were made by the Word, then either the Word was NOT MADE, or the Word made the Word.
Why you refuse to deal with that simple fact is anybody's guess.
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You said
Therefore, when Paul says all things were made by the Son he is NOT saying the Son - the HUMAN BORN OF MARY - was around in prehistory AS THE SON. He is rather saying this Man from Galilee is none other than Jehovah God our Father incarnate, the Creator of all things.
Well the man from Galilee is Jehovah God. But you have no answer for Paul saying this.
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13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
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Paul says Jehovah God made all thing BY HIS SON.
My doctrine says it was the Son that created all things because the Son pre existed as the image-logos.
The image Logos was God in visible form pre incarnation.
Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 10-16-2019 at 08:17 PM.
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10-16-2019, 09:47 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
You said
Therefore, when Paul says all things were made by the Son he is NOT saying the Son - the HUMAN BORN OF MARY - was around in prehistory AS THE SON. He is rather saying this Man from Galilee is none other than Jehovah God our Father incarnate, the Creator of all things.
Well the man from Galilee is Jehovah God. But you have no answer for Paul saying this.
Paul says Jehovah God made all thing BY HIS SON.
My doctrine says it was the Son that created all things because the Son pre existed as the image-logos.
The image Logos was God in visible form pre incarnation.
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"You have no answer for..."
Okay, I'm done. You either can't or won't read what is posted to you. So forget anything I might claim or believe. Just answer one question:
Since ALL things that were made, were made by the Word, and since the Word was the first thing made, then did the Word make the Word? Please just answer that one question.
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10-17-2019, 05:00 AM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,126
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
"You have no answer for..."
Okay, I'm done. You either can't or won't read what is posted to you. So forget anything I might claim or believe. Just answer one question:
Since ALL things that were made, were made by the Word, and since the Word was the first thing made, then did the Word make the Word? Please just answer that one question.
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Mike, isn’t here to “learn” Mike is here to teach. It is less work than being a minister in a church family. Here on the internet you can roll it out without having to deal with the consequences. Mike likes that feature. Anyway, he isn’t in a discussion with us, and therefore he is speaking over us to his supposed hungry audience. So, Mike if the logos made everything that was made didn’t the logos make the logos?
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10-17-2019, 06:44 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Since Adam was made in the image of God, yes God had his distinct image. His image looked like the angels. Thats why he said to them:
Let us make man after our image and likeness.
The same image that would be made flesh down the road and become the man Jesus Christ.
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The bible says Adam was made after the image of him that was to come, not him that was in Adam's day. And Jesus is like Adam in that both were the image of God.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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