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Old 02-20-2019, 10:33 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: A Wonder in Heaven

it would seem to mean that by extension, the war in heaven and Satan being cast out of heaven to the earth all took place @2,000 years ago. it would also mean that "knowing he has but a short time" is actually @2,000 years.
If Israel bringing forth the Messiah and His exaltation took place 2000 years ago, then there needn't be a problem with the "war in heaven" taking place 2000 years ago, either. The only problem would be if Rev 12 can be proven to be a vision of things to occur after the sounding of the seventh trump. But that requires a strictly linear chronology to the book, which again I haven't seen any evidence for.

Jesus said that from the time of John Baptist until His day the kingdom of heaven suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. Was He saying there was a cosmic conflict taking place in heaven? Well, actually He was, but not in the sense most might imagine.

Paul said we are seated (enthroned) in the heavens. Yet, Paul and the believers were firmly planted on Terra firma. So what is being said here? That spiritual realities are symbolized or represented by "heaven". Thus, signs in the sun, moon, and stars, the sun turning black, moon turning red, stars falling from the sky, etc, represent disturbances in the spiritual realm concerning the powers that rule. Not talking about invisible beings "out there somewhere" but as a representation of religious and political authorities, rulers, influences, etc.

So a war in the heavens, between satan and his messengers on one hand, and the Chief Prince of the hosts of God and His messengers on the other hand, is a representation of the spiritual conflict between the apostles and Christ's church with the forces of the world system that sought to dominate and control the spiritual and religious realm. As Paul said, we war against powers and principalities, spiritual wickedness in "high places" (literally, the upper heavens).

But what does that warfare actually look like? It is the conflict between the preaching of the Gospel and true doctrine, against lies, delusions, errors, false doctrines, and any thing opposed to Christ and His dominion.

So, yes, the war John saw in the heavens represents the conflict between satan and Christ, working out in history as the conflict between the world and the church.

The war in heaven takes place in the vision upon the ascension of Messiah and the woman's flight into the wilderness. The dragon is defeated and cast down, the church prevails as victorious in the kingdom of the heavens. And then the vision changes, the dragon now begins persecuting the woman, and the remnant of her faithful and righteous seed.

One may look at this as a recapitulation of the previous vision, but from another viewpoint, in order to be bring out more details concerning the conflict. Or, it may simply represent a succeeding phase in the conflict, where the battle is no longer between opposing forces vying for control of the spiritual authority and dominion, but now as simply a war of extermination between the world power and the children of Christ's heavenly kingdom. I am tending toward this latter view as being more correct than the other recapitulation view.

Regarding the "short time": the word time is kairos. It is a term I discovered when teaching classical rhetoric. It basically means a specific, appointed time for a specific purpose. The term does not just mean "time" in general. It has a specificity implied in it's meaning. So the dragon has a specific, appointed time, for a specific purpose.

The term "short" in that verse is oligos, and means "puny", as it small, few (as in the word oligarchy, rule by a few or puny/small number of people). The term is generally translated as few or small.

So the dragon has a small appointed season, during which he wrecks havoc on the earth. His kairos is restricted, of limited duration.

It should be noted that it doesn't say "he has a short time left". But simply that he has a limited kairos or appointed time. While it is tempting to judge the length of time by our ordinary standards, I think that would be premature. Time statements in prophecy often do not mean quite what we normally think or assume. What is important is understanding the time statement within the context of the vision (ch 12 and the following chapters). Compared to the overall stretch of the visions delivered to John (which stretch into eternity, in fact), the appointed time for the dragon's rage upon the earth is, indeed, oligos (puny, small, limited in scope).

And that brings us back to the original point: it is not merely that the devil "has a short length of time". Short length of time for what? Existence? No, I believe the kairos is a specific season or appointed time, and has to do with a specific purpose. That kairos has to do with the dragon's persecution of the woman, with a destructive flood that is swallowed up by the earth. The earth then becomes the recipient of the wrath of the dragon. This is further elaborated on in the following chapters, as the dragon empowers the beast from the sea (and the beast from the earth) who tyrannize the earth and its inhabitants.

The time, then, is a specific time appointed for certain specific activities of the dragon. And, that season of wrath is (relatively speaking) "puny, few, small, diminutive". Thus, the saints are comforted to know that the rage of the dragon is limited and will come to an end.

Psalm 37:10 says in a little while the wicked will be no more. Yea, you will search for them, but they will not be found. How long has it been since those words were penned? 2500 years? 3000? But still, it is "a little while".

The LXX Greek Old Testament, by the way, uses the word "oligos" in Psalm 37:10...
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Last edited by Esaias; 02-20-2019 at 10:39 PM.
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  #22  
Old 03-02-2019, 06:26 AM
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jediwill83 jediwill83 is offline
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Re: A Wonder in Heaven

I wish you guys would start a thread picking apart popular beliefs on endtime prophecy. Like seriously.


I skipped over this thread because the convoluted stretching of the mind required to process all the back and forth.


Guys, Im no slouch in using my imagination...I dont think that I didnt understand because of lack of intelligence...I think its because the common things I have been taught simply lacked truth and because of that it never really resonated with me...but what you both are talking about and how you're talking about...it clicks.


Its kinda like the Most Satisfying Videos on YouTube I used to watch when I was a stoner.


There is this instinctive satisfaction that you feel when seeing something that looks perfect....and that same feeling I feel when experiencing the Word rightly divided...
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