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  #91  
Old 06-01-2019, 06:55 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Help With The Greek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
I do understand this in the first chapter of John.
But, as I said previously οὗτος is most of the time "this"

Matthew 3:3
Matthew 3:17
Matthew 5:19
Matthew 7:12
Matthew 8:27
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  #92  
Old 06-06-2019, 01:17 AM
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Re: Help With The Greek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
He was with God in the beginning.

The same was in the beginning with God.

You are specifically referring to οὗτος?

KJV got it right, and NIV has it wrong.
Does not outos take on the meaning of the term it is replacing (it is a pronoun, correct?), and since it is serving as a pronoun for ho logos it would have to mean "this" rather than "he", since logos is grammatically speaking a thing rather than a person? And thus to use "he" requires an interpretative decision about what the logos is, whereas "the same" or "this" leaves such theological decisions aside in favour of raw grammar?
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  #93  
Old 06-06-2019, 09:18 PM
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Re: Help With The Greek

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Does not outos take on the meaning of the term it is replacing (it is a pronoun, correct?), and since it is serving as a pronoun for ho logos it would have to mean "this" rather than "he", since logos is grammatically speaking a thing rather than a person? And thus to use "he" requires an interpretative decision about what the logos is, whereas "the same" or "this" leaves such theological decisions aside in favour of raw grammar?
Correct, it is a pronoun therefore it is "this" logos instead of he. because logos is a thing, word.
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  #94  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:20 AM
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Re: Help With The Greek

He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

The translation stands as valid. Shall all references to he/him be changed to something else ??

Context determines meaning, not theological presuppositions.
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  #95  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:53 AM
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Re: Help With The Greek

It doesn't matter how the pronoun is translated once you understand a key fact. Greek is unlike English. Words have gender, even when the word refers to a non person.

Logos is a masculine noun. Every time it's used with a pronoun it will be masculine too, not because it refers to a person but because in Greek Grammar nouns and pronouns agree in gender
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  #96  
Old 06-15-2019, 12:03 AM
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Re: Help With The Greek

The grammar of the demonstrative pronoun houtos cannot tell us how to translate it into English. As has been noted, the only reason houtos is masculine is because its antecedent, logos, happens to be masculine grammatically.

It most commonly means "this." If it modifies another noun and its article, it means "this [noun]"--this box, this man, this sandal, etc. It if appears alone, it can mean "this man" or "this one." But, several times this demonstrative aspect of the pronoun is weakened, so in effect it functions as just a personal pronoun and is translated "he."

A few posts in this thread, however, have demonstrated the ultimate point: the way one chooses to translate this pronoun in John 1.2 is based on the interpreter's prior understanding of Jesus Christ that he brings with him to this passage. In other words, if you're a Trinitarian, you'll definitely assert that it should be translated as "he," because it refers to a person. If you're Oneness, you'll say it shouldn't be "he." I don't remember the exact wording used, but at least a couple of people in this thread, I believe, have said in effect, "Since the Word is not a person the pronoun shouldn't be translated 'he.'" So, their pre-understanding is guiding the translation.
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  #97  
Old 06-15-2019, 01:24 PM
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Re: Help With The Greek

John has but one subject, not 2. The subject is Jesus Christ. There is no justification for translating outos as something other that that Jesus Christ.

If John wanted outos to be a different subject, he makes indication in his writing.

Does John change subjects between the two in other places in these opening paragraphs ?
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