Consider this. It is more vital to ensure we know that JEWS and GENTILES BOTH are equal in God's eyes, so that we retain the understanding that God is no respector of persons. Usually, people who claim Jewish and Hebrew names and emphasize them somehow believe that the Jewish people are above every other people, and that the church is not the ONLY way for Jews to come to Christ.
I've considered it.
No, it is NOT more vital. Put aside your need to prove to a Jew that you and him/her are equally special to God. God knows it and YOU know it. Jews will see for themselves when they witness:
1) The power of the Holy Spirit in your life.
2) Your presence at the table of the Marriage Supper of The Lamb.
What IS more vital is letting the Jewish people know that Messiah has come, his name is Yeshua (Jesus for English speakers...), that He fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies regarding His coming, that His death-burial-resurrection work at Passover/Festival of Unleavened Bread/Festival of Firstfruits made atonement for sin once and for all, and that all who trust in this atoning work (whether Jew or Gentile) has direct access to Abba through the commencement and completion of the Acts 2:38 entrance into the Kingdom of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
...(some propose erroneously)** that the church is not the ONLY way for Jews to come to Christ.
A;ll of this is associated with the span of ages that are said to occur in the world, and touches upon a faulty idea that some propose. When we succeed in getting people to realize that the Jew will have no hope after the rapture of the church, despite dispensational teaching to the contrary, we will ensure we reach the precious Jewish people with much more fervour, anyway! If the church is the only way for ANYONE, and there is no age after the church age in which Israel can know God, how much more will the church reach out to share with Israel the truth of JESUS Christ?
I agree that God wants all of Israel saved, whether now, or during the end of times, and that salvation in Yeshua will be available now and then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
That is really sad is that doctrines float around so popularly saying that God will remove the GENTILE church in order to save Israel, when the Church is NOT gentile, and is the only way for Jew or Gentile from now on until Jesus comes, after which no one can come to God.
When time permits, I would like to use the above as a starting point for a discussion, with your permission.
**parenthesis is mine, not Bro. Blume's.
__________________
I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.
Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!
Passing out Christian literature (tracts) anywhere in Israel is not permitted by Israeli law. This is the general definition of missionary activity, which is outlawed.
However, you can speak to people about Yeshua anywhere, as long as the person you are speaking to is an adult.
Why do rail against the Chineese and the Arab/Muslim nations for much the same prohibition to spreading the Gospel?
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I've considered it.
No, it is NOT more vital. Put aside your need to prove to a Jew that you and him/her are equally special to God. God knows it and YOU know it. Jews will see for themselves when they witness:
I am speaking about what is mroe vital to US. When OUR understanidng is corrected that Jew3 and Gentile are equal, then WE will deal with Israel differently. in the way you would like to see more.
Quote:
What IS more vital is letting the Jewish people know that Messiah has come, his name is Yeshua (Jesus for English speakers...), that He fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies regarding His coming, that His death-burial-resurrection work at Passover/Festival of Unleavened Bread/Festival of Firstfruits made atonement for sin once and for all, and that all who trust in this atoning work (whether Jew or Gentile) has direct access to Abba through the commencement and completion of the Acts 2:38 entrance into the Kingdom of God.
Again, you missed the fact that I was speaking about what is more important for US to understand. All of us already know that.
Quote:
I agree that God wants all of Israel saved, whether now, or during the end of times, and that salvation in Yeshua will be available now and then.
When time permits, I would like to use the above as a starting point for a discussion, with your permission.
We have chatted about this for a long time on the eschatology section. You will find discussions there all about that issue.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
What I was intending to point out was we so often come hard against the Chineese and Arab/Muslim countries for their strict refusal to allow Christians to prosolyte their people, yet the nation of Israel refuses to same thing and we accept it with a kind and gentle acceptance, as if it is some how more acceptable for Israel to not allow the Gospel to be preached in that country than it is for other countries not allowing the gospel to be preached in tose countries.
I am speaking about what is mroe vital to US. When OUR understanidng is corrected that Jew3 and Gentile are equal, then WE will deal with Israel differently. in the way you would like to see more.
Again, you missed the fact that I was speaking about what is more important for US to understand. All of us already know that.
Then please tell me, exactly who doesn't understand this among US? And thank you in advance for your response?
__________________
I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.
Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!
Then please tell me, exactly who doesn't understand this among US? And thank you in advance for your response?
Let me put it this way.
Dispensationalism is a far-too-popular doctrine that teaches Israelites can come into the church now, but do not have to do so if they can live past a future rapture of the church when God allegedly turns to Israel to save Jews OUTSIDE THE CHURCH PLAN altogether. They believe God has two plans (which is not in the bible) and two peoples (which is not in the bible) and two works (which is not in the bible). One for the gentile church and one for the nation of Israel. They do not believe God has only one plan, and that is for everyone to come into the church, and that God is doing nothing -- now or any time in the future -- outside that single plan in order to reach all of mankind.
They do believe we should witness to Jews, thank God. But since they do not believe the nation of Israel as a whole is ever planned or destined to be part of the church, they believe the church is "gentile". And they believe that after the GENTILE church is raptured out of the earth, Israel will THEN be God's focus. This is a relatively NEW DOCTRINE that did not exist before 1830.
So the burden to reach Jews today is not so strong with dispensationalists as it would be if they did not believe there is a chance for salvation of Israel after the church is raptured.
Personally, I strongly feel it is poppycock to believe the nation of Israel will come to God after the "gentile" church is raptured. In my view, Israel MUST be saved NOW before the rapture, or never be saved. Therefore, the impetus on one who agrees with the viewpoint I propose to reach Israelites is far greater than any given dispensationalist's.
Get rid of dispensationalism, and you will see the church have a greater burden to reach Israel NOW.
Think about it. If one believes Israel has a chance to come to God after the rapture, there simply will not be the fervour in the heart to win Israel NOW as much as with someone who does not believe Israel can come to God after the rapture of the church.
The church is NOT gentile. It is JEW AND GENTILE in one body. Ephesians chapters 2 through 3.
May the Lord bless you for your burden for Israel.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
What I was intending to point out was we so often come hard against the Chineese and Arab/Muslim countries for their strict refusal to allow Christians to prosolyte their people, yet the nation of Israel refuses to same thing and we accept it with a kind and gentle acceptance, as if it is some how more acceptable for Israel to not allow the Gospel to be preached in that country than it is for other countries not allowing the gospel to be preached in tose countries.
Good point.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
What I was intending to point out was we so often come hard against the Chineese and Arab/Muslim countries for their strict refusal to allow Christians to prosolyte their people, yet the nation of Israel refuses to same thing and we accept it with a kind and gentle acceptance, as if it is some how more acceptable for Israel to not allow the Gospel to be preached in that country than it is for other countries not allowing the gospel to be preached in tose countries.
Yes, Christians certainly do come out against China for prohibiting evangelism, but not so much against Arab/Muslim countries, and your point about evangelism to Israelis is valid to a certain extent, but knowing some church history may help understand why Christians are not so hard on Israel. Not making excuses, just pointing out some facts.
Unfortunately, the church has an ocean of blood on her hands:
Some of it Arab/Muslim blood, most of it Jewish blood.
Everywhere the Jewish people have lived after the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, they have been persecuted, first by Christians, then by Muslims, then by both. The culmination of this persecution was the Holocaust, where nearly ⅓ of the world's Jewish population perished as a result of the directive of the 20th Century's biggest Jew hater (may his name be blotted out..), who himself was influenced by the theology of Martin Luther, another Jew hater. Survivors of the Holocaust told of instance after instance where they watched a Jew killed by a Nazi guard, and the guard would say to the victim, "That's for killing Jesus."
So-called Christian countries like Australia, Canada, and the USA had the opportunity to take these souls in as immigrants, but the countries were uncertain if they could accommodate a flood of Jewish immigrants. The estimated 3 million Jews who died in the camps could have been given the northeast quadrant of Arizona to occupy, but fear of massive immigration coupled with an economic depression closed the gates of the US to allow only a trickle. Canada could have done more but didn't. Australia summed it up by saying, "we don't have an immigration problem, and we don't want one."
The Master said that the world would know we are His Disciples because we love one another, and this extends to including unsaved Jews. Our best opportunity to show real Christ-like love to the Jewish people came in the late 1930's, and the USA as a "Christian" nation blew it big time. So-called Christian countries will never be able to wash the blood off of their hands for failing to "love thy neighbor" (Lev. 19:18) and allowing the Jews to die at the hands of the anti-Christ Nazi war machine.
After the Holocaust, Jewish people wanted a land for themselves where they would not have to deal with persecution from Christians and Arabs. When the region of Palestine was partitioned by the UN into Arab and Jewish states, Jewish people got what they've wanted for 2 millennia: a return to their home. The large portion of people who occupied The Land in the late 1940's were actual Holocaust survivors, and others had relatives who had been killed in the Holocaust. They were going to fight to the death for their new home, and fight they did, losing 1% of their 650,000 citizen population in a war against 4 neighboring Arab countries (plus supplemental troops from Iraq and Saudi Arabia).
These Torah-observant Jews who were willing to give their life for their new home had no tolerance for a faith that believed the Torah was nailed to a cross and embraced by people who murdered Jews in concentration camps "for killing Jesus." This attitude exists today in 21st Century Israel.
So it's not that we accept it with a kind and gentle acceptance, but more like we shrug our shoulders and realize that we have an uphill battle, due to actions that are beyond our control from history's sinful men who murdered innocent Jews in the Name of Jesus. It's not realistic for Jewish people to put aside 2000 years of hate and bloodshed and let bygones be bygones.
Paul tells us that we are to provoke natural Israel to jealousy. How do we do that?
1) Know your Old Testament as well as your New Testament, specifically the Messianic prophecies in the Old that were fulfilled in the New.
2) Know Church history, the good AND the bad.
3) Know your Jewish roots (the root which supports you as the wild olive branch), the Hebraic heritage of your faith, and how it pertains to the Torah-observant Jew AND you, the New Testament believer:
....a) Learn about the Sabbath
....b) Learn about G-d's Appointed Times (Ha-Moadim in Leviticus 23)
4) Allow Jews to see how Jesus, the greatest Jew of all time, has transformed your heart and life.
5) Allow Jews to see the works of the Holy Spirit in your life, and that your steps are ordered by ADONAI.
Invite a Jewish person to a hand-clappin', foot-stompin', aisle-runnin', tongue-talkin', apostolic-pentecostal church service. Then tell 'em you don't worship three gods, but one god, who one day manifested Himself in a flesh and blood body, walked among us, kept Torah and taught it to His Talmidim (disciples), prophesied that the Temple would be leveled in a generation (40 years), became our Pesach (Passover) sacrifice and fulfilled Isaiah 53 (the portion no longer read in synagogues) so that His Blood would serve as perfect atonement for our sins. You will definitely have a starting point.
Rabbi Chaim Richman (Temple Institute) and Rabbi Gershon Solomon (Temple Mount Faithful) are leaders in the movement to rebuild the Third Holy Temple. Both have attended services at a OP church in Bellflower CA. Rb. Solomon told me, "Wow! You people REALLY know how to worship!" while Rb. Richman stated his conviction that the Oneness Pentecostals are one of the Ten Lost Tribes.
Shalom shalom
__________________
I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.
Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!
...and Rabbi Gershon Solomon (Temple Mount Faithful) are leaders in the movement to rebuild the Third Holy Temple. Both have attended services at a OP church in Bellflower CA. Rb. Solomon told me, "Wow! You people REALLY know how to worship!"
That is indeed good.
But a upc church who had Solomon speak notably had the pastor avoid using the name Jesus. Saw the video.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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