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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #61  
Old 06-23-2009, 07:19 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Beg your pardon,you need to understand the saved and unsaved were separated by a great gulf.Of course the story(sermon)was not Bible and I will once again remind you of that fact.The book of Enoch was in the Bible for hundreds of years before the Laodicean Church had it taken out.Odd don't you think? This is the same church in Revelations that no one wants to be in.As far as the complete works of Josephus you really probably shouldn't read his works yet.
You really don't want to answer the Question on who it is that God brings with him at the Rapture so let me help you out with the answer.
1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
There's your answer on soul sleep.
Some people strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.Do you believe Elijah went to Heaven in a flaming chariot?Yet you can't see the dead in Christ in Heaven.
Do you read what I am writing? I am laying a foundation of more to come. There are very good reasons to believe the story of Lazarus and the rich man which "instant Heaven" doctrine stands on was a parable.

Yes I probably should not bother reading the Works Of Josephus as it is extremely long and I dont have time to read books by secular writers. The parts I have read and DO agree with I have found most Apostolics reject. Same with the book of Enoch.

And yes I do want to comment on those returning with Christ. I will soon give you an answer of peace. Im kind of short on time so I will try to get to it in the next few days.
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  #62  
Old 06-23-2009, 09:02 PM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Do you read what I am writing? I am laying a foundation of more to come. There are very good reasons to believe the story of Lazarus and the rich man which "instant Heaven" doctrine stands on was a parable.

Yes I probably should not bother reading the Works Of Josephus as it is extremely long and I dont have time to read books by secular writers. The parts I have read and DO agree with I have found most Apostolics reject. Same with the book of Enoch.

And yes I do want to comment on those returning with Christ. I will soon give you an answer of peace. Im kind of short on time so I will try to get to it in the next few days.
Yes I am reading what your writing and quoting.You really are reading into the Sermon story way too much.It was a story and if some like the ideal that the old testament saints knew what was going on,great. Maybe some would prefer that the saints were all spiritually brain dead even as they were seen walking around Jerusalem but they wouldn't know this because they are dead.
Thank you brother Michael I look forward to the rest of your answer on the resurrection of the dead.
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  #63  
Old 06-24-2009, 06:59 AM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Maybe some would prefer that the saints were all spiritually brain dead even as they were seen walking around Jerusalem but they wouldn't know this because they dead.


Pardon my intrusion here, but where does one find it written in the scriptures that an unknown number of resurrected Old Testament saints were seen "walking around Jerusalem"? You are not the first person that I have witnessed stating this as fact, however, after much searching of the New Testament record I can find absolutely nothing to authenticate such a statement.
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  #64  
Old 06-24-2009, 07:18 AM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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There are very good reasons to believe the story of Lazarus and the rich man which "instant Heaven" doctrine stands on was a parable.


Seeing that our Lord Jesus never spoke "plainly" to any except his chosen disciples (read Matthew 13:34 and Mark 4:33-34), and in the story of Lazarus and the rich man our Lord was speaking to a group of Pharisees (read Luke 16:14), then is it not a logical and scripturally sound conclusion that Jesus was issuing a parable, and not a depiction of a historical event?

Perhaps it should also be noted that Jesus explicitly stated that "...the Father (which is an expression that implies the eternal invisible Spirit separate from His visible physical manifestation, that is to say, Jesus the Christ,) judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" (read John 5:22). Would not an assumption that the story of Lazarus and the rich man represented a historical event represent a clear violation of our Lord's own statement concerning judgments? Are these not sufficient scriptural proof to cause one to conclude that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable?
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  #65  
Old 06-24-2009, 08:48 AM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

I think story of Lazarus and the rich man was not relating history, but rather using actual realms in the spirit (Abraham's bosom and gehenna hell-fire) in order to relate a thought about how Christians are considered by God to be much more than they are by those religious leaders to whom Christ was talking. Christ said the pharisees esteemed the attention of men more than the attention of God. And the rich man represents one wealthy with that which man esteems but totally lacking what God esteems. So, a reality was used without necessarily referring to two actual men, but not using mythical pictures of hell either, to relate a point to the Pharisees. IOW, Jesus was not teaching about hell fire, although it actually exists. Again, Jesus would not use a myth to teach truth, as though hellfire is mythological.
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  #66  
Old 06-24-2009, 01:31 PM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by Lafon View Post
Pardon my intrusion here, but where does one find it written in the scriptures that an unknown number of resurrected Old Testament saints were seen "walking around Jerusalem"? You are not the first person that I have witnessed stating this as fact, however, after much searching of the New Testament record I can find absolutely nothing to authenticate such a statement.
Hey glad you ask,
Matthew 27:52-53(K.J.V)
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  #67  
Old 06-24-2009, 01:47 PM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by Lafon View Post
Seeing that our Lord Jesus never spoke "plainly" to any except his chosen disciples (read Matthew 13:34 and Mark 4:33-34), and in the story of Lazarus and the rich man our Lord was speaking to a group of Pharisees (read Luke 16:14), then is it not a logical and scripturally sound conclusion that Jesus was issuing a parable, and not a depiction of a historical event?

Perhaps it should also be noted that Jesus explicitly stated that "...the Father (which is an expression that implies the eternal invisible Spirit separate from His visible physical manifestation, that is to say, Jesus the Christ,) judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" (read John 5:22). Would not an assumption that the story of Lazarus and the rich man represented a historical event represent a clear violation of our Lord's own statement concerning judgments? Are these not sufficient scriptural proof to cause one to conclude that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable?
Do an in depth study of the parables of Jesus.More then likely you will conclude scripturally that the Rich Man,Poor Man and Raising Lazarus From The Dead could in no way be a parable.These two stories were events that were literal and not a parable.Parable(Riddle) How do you find a hidden meaning in the two events that are mentioned above?
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  #68  
Old 06-25-2009, 04:30 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

The Resurrection And Rapture

13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

One thing is for sure. Paul tells us EXACTLY the state or condition of the dead.

Verse 13-They are asleep
Verse14-They are asleep in Christ
Verse 15-They are asleep

Consider the fact that in this mighty scripture portion that gets quoted multitudes of times in Churches not once does Paul say anything about the dead saints being alive in Heaven!

His purpose in writing this by the Holy Ghost was to give hope, verse 13 and comfort, verse 18 to those whose friends or family had died as a Christian.

Fact is Paul NEVER attempted to cause them to hope their dead loved ones were in Heaven already, rejoicing in the bliss of eternal life. Fact is he offered them NO COMFORT to tell them the saints who died were living in the arms of Jesus.

The hope and comfort he DID offer them was simple.

Yeshua would come down from Heaven. The dead in Christ would be resurrected first. Then those living will be caught up to meet them in the sky and at that time our hope and comfort would be validated!

Matter of fact Paul expressly says we are to comfort each other with THESE WORDS!

18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Verse18

Not some other words. Just these he wrote for that very purpose. If someone comes claiming to offer BETTER COMFORT AND A BETTER HOPE than the apostle himself one should be very leary.

So to what does Paul refer when he says God will bring the dead with Yeshua when he comes?

The answer is found simply in knowing where they are NOW.

The dead in Christ are WHERE? Paul makes it so plain . Matter of fact thats what this scripture portion is all about.

They are ASLEEP IN YESHUA.

Not awake or alive living in Heaven but SLEEPING IN HIM.

In his remembrance not one of them is forgotten! He will remember every name that was written in the book of life. They though they are not conscious of themselves are remembered by Yeshua just as if they WERE STILL ALIVE.

Spiritually speaking their existence is simply in the mind of the Messiah. They are IN HIM. Could you think of a safer place to be?

When Yeshua comes back they will be with him. Their thoughts and memories will be IN HIS CARE. He will join them to whatever is left of that body they once had even if all thats left is a molecule of DNA!

Then there will be a REGENERATION of life in possibly millions of saints worldwide! It will be the greatest event since the creation of the Universe!

Dead bodies restored to life and vitality beyond our present comprehension! No longer earthly material but heavenly! No longer natural but spiritual!

27: Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28: And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt. 19:27-28

The REGENERATION of our lives is that great and foundational event called THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

It alone is THE HOPE OF THE CHRISTIAN.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 06-25-2009 at 04:33 PM.
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  #69  
Old 06-25-2009, 05:45 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

Remember what David said about waking up in resurrection?

15: As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. Psalms 17:15

David obviously is writing about the resurrection. He knew he would sleep the sleep of death. He also knew he would AWAKE again one day.

Now if David knew he would be alive in Paradise for thousands of years of happiness waiting for his new body why would he NOT be satisfied till his resurrection when he AWOKE?

Are the supposed dead/alive saints in Paradise or Heaven or wherever you think they are DISSATISFIED with their present state of existence?

David knew when HE would be satisfied.

When he WOKE OUT OF SLEEP at the resurrection in the likeness of Yeshua.
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  #70  
Old 06-25-2009, 05:52 PM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

Asleep in Christ is a term used for someone who has died in a state of something we Christian call (saved)i.e a child of God.
The Bible uses this term when speaking about one of God's children.The Bible also says that we are dead to the flesh.Are you still breathing?The Bible uses words that are symbolic,such as "The Dead In Christ".
OK let's say that I'll go along with your theory except if I do then I would be calling Christ a liar.
John 11:25
Luke 23:43
Matthew 8:22
John 5:24

You really have got to understand what the term asleep in Christ means.I believe this term used to describe the physical death rather then the spiritual death has confused you.Spirits don't sleep.No where in scripture does it say that Jesus holds our memories.Yes there is a book of remembrance but that pertains to a different subject.
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