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Old 02-24-2018, 10:24 AM
TheLayman TheLayman is offline
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Oneness and Acts 2:38

My question(s) are about Oneness Baptism and Acts 2:38 in general, not about Billy Graham, that is why I plucked this out of the Billy Graham thread and started a new thread with it. So in that thread, this was said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
In Godís hands?

Yes, it is called the Bible.

We either are preaching the truth or not preaching the truth.

So, we shouldnít be vague about wether old Billy boy made heaven his home.

He either made it or not.

If we PUSH Acts 2:38 as salvation and that cowboy didnít even get that straight.

Then as an Apostolic believer I shouldnít be timidly throwing it in Godís lap. You guys either believe you are preaching Bible truth or your not. If you arenít sure whether a Baptist made it without Acts 2:38, then he isnít the one you should be worried about. Because it seems you may have your own doubts.

So here are my questions (I may have follow ups). Can you tell me how Billy Graham didn't get it right? (without attacking Graham because if you do, this will immediately become another Billy Graham thread...feel free to detail how he got it wrong).

With words, can you tell me how the Biblical "truth" of "Acts 2:38" is carried out in your church? Let's say someone wants to do it your way in their church this weekend, exactly how and exactly what does that look like? And exactly how is each step "Biblical?"

Let me stop right there so things don't go off the tracks. Remember, this is not about Rev Graham...some of you may have disagreed about him to some extent but you seemed to agree with each other about Acts 2:38, so if you could just help me out with that I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you in advance,
TheLayman
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:35 AM
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Re: Oneness and Acts 2:38

You are right, your question isn't about Billy Graham. It is about you, being a Trinitarian, not looking for answers from a Oneness Apostolic group, but to push your Trinitarian doctrine.
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:08 AM
TheLayman TheLayman is offline
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Re: Oneness and Acts 2:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
You are right, your question isn't about Billy Graham. It is about you, being a Trinitarian, not looking for answers from a Oneness Apostolic group, but to push your Trinitarian doctrine.
WOW! That was certainly helpful. So me asking you a question about how you do things is me pushing Trinitarian doctrine. Let me be blunt...that thinking is so twisted it is scary, seriously.

WAIT! EDIT! Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain to me the mechanism of how asking you to explain YOUR BIBLICAL TRUTH is actually me pushing Trinitarian doctrine, I would be very interested. (See, I always thought for me to explain my beliefs I had to...well...actually explain my beliefs, what a surprise).

TheLayman

Last edited by TheLayman; 02-24-2018 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 02-24-2018, 05:11 PM
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Re: Oneness and Acts 2:38

Twisted and scary? Do you work for CNN? LOL!

You have 461 posts. You know what our forum rules include - what we believe.

Please spare the wringing of the hands and the pretentious - "...so if you could just help me out with that I would greatly appreciate it."
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Old 02-24-2018, 06:21 PM
TheLayman TheLayman is offline
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Re: Oneness and Acts 2:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
Twisted and scary? Do you work for CNN? LOL!

You have 461 posts. You know what our forum rules include - what we believe.

Please spare the wringing of the hands and the pretentious - "...so if you could just help me out with that I would greatly appreciate it."
Whoa, I didn't violate any rules (yes I have read them)...I began a thread with a question (which no one has answered and the answer is not in your rules). You are the one who looked at my questions (here they are again)
So here are my questions (I may have follow ups). Can you tell me how Billy Graham didn't get it right? (without attacking Graham because if you do, this will immediately become another Billy Graham thread...feel free to detail how he got it wrong).

With words, can you tell me how the Biblical "truth" of "Acts 2:38" is carried out in your church? Let's say someone wants to do it your way in their church this weekend, exactly how and exactly what does that look like? And exactly how is each step "Biblical?"
and YOU made the following accusation (personal attack) in response:


Quote:
Originally Posted by pressing on
It is about you, being a Trinitarian, not looking for answers from a Oneness Apostolic group, but to push your Trinitarian doctrine.
Doesn't that look ridiculous as an answer to my question? I'm not like most who use the word "cult" in place of "heretical" or "unorthodox." I use cult only when referring to the psychological aspect and what it does to normal objective reasoning, I don't care if it's Jim Jones, or some strange baptist who protests at the funerals of servicemen, or whoever. I often use the term "cult think" not in reference to "what" someone believes but their "reasoning process", i.e. cult think (if you'd like to know what psychological aspects I speak of just let me know). Your "answer" is textbook cult think. Us-them, a simple straightforward question about your belief is a "trap" that has been set by someone who is pushing a different doctrine to entangle you, so whatever you do don't answer because answering a question about what you believe is actually falling into a trap of teaching false doctrine.

Oh boy...I'm still serious, how sad this represents your reasoning processes especially as it relates to God. How sad it is that "your Biblical truth" must hide. I don't see any of this from believers in the Bible...but it doesn't matter. It is obvious that you don't wish to answer me so why don't you just move on. You stopped by to give your ridiculous answer, i.e. make a ridiculous accusation and personal attack, and I commented on it. Doesn't seem to me that you and I have anything else to discuss. And if you can find any Trinitarian doctrine in my question whatsoever all I can say is WOW! (But please copy and paste it for me with highlights).

TheLayman

Last edited by TheLayman; 02-24-2018 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:22 PM
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Re: Oneness and Acts 2:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLayman View Post
Whoa, I didn't violate any rules (yes I have read them)...I began a thread with a question (which no one has answered and the answer is not in your rules). You are the one who looked at my questions (here they are again)

I didn't say you violated any rules. I said that, in the rules it shows what we believe here on AFF.

Quote:
So here are my questions (I may have follow ups). Can you tell me how Billy Graham didn't get it right? (without attacking Graham because if you do, this will immediately become another Billy Graham thread...feel free to detail how he got it wrong).


With words, can you tell me how the Biblical "truth" of "Acts 2:38" is carried out in your church? Let's say someone wants to do it your way in their church this weekend, exactly how and exactly what does that look like? And exactly how is each step "Biblical?"
And I say, you don't really care what we believe here AND you already know what we believe. You have posted on this forum 462 times.

Quote:
and YOU made the following accusation (personal attack) in response:
Quote:



Doesn't that look ridiculous as an answer to my question? I'm not like most who use the word "cult" in place of "heretical" or "unorthodox." I use cult only when referring to the psychological aspect and what it does to normal objective reasoning, I don't care if it's Jim Jones, or some strange baptist who protests at the funerals of servicemen, or whoever. I often use the term "cult think" not in reference to "what" someone believes but their "reasoning process", i.e. cult think (if you'd like to know what psychological aspects I speak of just let me know). Your "answer" is textbook cult think. Us-them, a simple straightforward question about your belief is a "trap" that has been set by someone who is pushing a different doctrine to entangle you, so whatever you do don't answer because answering a question about what you believe is actually falling into a trap of teaching false doctrine.

Oh boy...I'm still serious, how sad this represents your reasoning processes especially as it relates to God. How sad it is that "your Biblical truth" must hide. I don't see any of this from believers in the Bible...but it doesn't matter. It is obvious that you don't wish to answer me so why don't you just move on. You stopped by to give your ridiculous answer, i.e. make a ridiculous accusation and personal attack, and I commented on it. Doesn't seem to me that you and I have anything else to discuss. And if you can find any Trinitarian doctrine in my question whatsoever all I can say is WOW! (But please copy and paste it for me with highlights).

TheLayman
You would call us a cult regardless of the discussion. I have news for you, go to any church and find out how much we don't agree on everything. What keeps us together is that we know in whom we have believed and we have been filled with His Spirit in the same manner as the Apostles and all those they ministered to in the New Testament.
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:37 PM
TheLayman TheLayman is offline
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Re: Oneness and Acts 2:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
I didn't say you violated any rules. I said that, in the rules it shows what we believe here on AFF.
And I said the answer to my questions are not in the rules...you know that or you would have copied and pasted the answer. If you're trying to play dumb you're doing a great job. Perhaps the questions were too complicated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PO
And I say, you don't really care what we believe here AND you already know what we believe.
And I say you're still posting about me and at me...you have no intention of answering my questions but you are still posting at me and about me. ,

Quote:
Originally Posted by PO
You have posted on this forum 462 times.
Is someone supposed to be impressed that you can read a post count? Is the answer to my questions in a post count?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PO
You would call us a cult regardless of the discussion.
Now you are displaying a reading comprehension problem because:
  1. I specifically did not call Oneness a cult.
  2. You can look through my 462 posts (463 now) and you will not find me calling Oneness a cult (though if you read them all you will probably find me saying this elsewhere...that I do not approve or agree with referring to a group who you believe hold unorthdox/heretical doctrines as cult because of doctrine alone).
  3. I said YOU displayed cult think and explained what I meant.
Those two facts represent reality. Another psychological anomaly that presents in "cult think" is an inability to deal with objective facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PO
I have news for you, go to any church and find out how much we don't agree on everything.
That sentence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PO
What keeps us together is that we know in whom we have believed and we have been filled with His Spirit in the same manner as the Apostles and all those they ministered to in the New Testament.
Right...so are you done doing whatever you are doing now? Can you move on? Thanks for sharing...great answers.

TheLayman
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Old 02-25-2018, 03:49 AM
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Re: Oneness and Acts 2:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLayman View Post


With words, can you tell me how the Biblical "truth" of "Acts 2:38" is carried out in your church? Let's say someone wants to do it your way in their church this weekend, exactly how and exactly what does that look like? And exactly how is each step "Biblical?"
An individual seeking to be baptized would be expected to articulate a brief but coherent profession of faith in Jesus as the crucified, buried, and resurrected Christ and Son of God who died as their Substitute taking their sins upon Himself. They would also need to indicate a desire and intention to commit themselves to Him as a disciple (student, follower). That being the case and there being no other reasons NOT to baptize them, they would be immersed upon a public confession of their faith with prayer for the Lord to save them. Whoever immersed them would use a formula as follows "I baptise you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins". Prayer for them to receive the Holy Spirit would take place immediately after if they had not received the Spirit earlier.
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Old 02-25-2018, 10:02 AM
TheLayman TheLayman is offline
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Re: Oneness and Acts 2:38

First Esaias, thank-you very much. In my discussions with Oneness Pentecostals I made a rule for myself which is try to "assume nothing," it is much easier to ask. And the reason I was asking this question came from the Billy Graham thread in that there seemed to be a little disagreement as to whether Oneness Pentecostals practice a Biblical Baptism exactly as it is described in Scripture whereas most others do not, or whether Oneness Pentecostals practice a Baptism based on their interpretation of Scripture since an actual baptism is never described in Scripture. And that's why my last question in the opening post was: "And exactly how is each step 'Biblical?'" You didn't do that but that's okay, I will make an honest attempt to do so on your behalf (if you want to add something that's great). I will not be exhaustive, just making the affirmative case for you where ever I can and where I can't you can respond if you so desire. And I'm not trying to debate (I have read a great many debates on baptism over the years, don't need to do that) but I am going to examine that question as best I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
An individual seeking to be baptized would be expected to articulate a brief but coherent profession of faith in Jesus as the crucified, buried, and resurrected Christ and Son of God who died as their Substitute taking their sins upon Himself.
A passage which affirms this quite clearly:

Romans 10:8-11 (NKJV)
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
And to finish up, Acts 2:22-24, 36:

Acts 2:22-24, 36 (NKJV)

22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it...
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
They would also need to indicate a desire and intention to commit themselves to Him as a disciple (student, follower).That being the case and there being no other reasons NOT to baptize them, they would be immersed upon a public confession of their faith with prayer for the Lord to save them. Whoever immersed them would use a formula as follows "I baptise you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins".
Okay, I think the most obvious passage of reference here is Acts 2:38-39:

Acts 2:38-39 (NKJV)
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
And so Oneness understand this to mean that during baptism the name of "Jesus Christ" is literally to be audibly spoken, and it can certainly be read that way, so we can say that this is literally Biblical regardless of how someone else may read it. What I do not see and what I cannot find is the Bible saying that anyone besides the person receiving baptism needs to confess it (and you did already include this need in the profession of faith). What you have added to baptism is your ecclesiology and what the pastor does during baptism. However, as I said, according to the Bible the one who needs to call on the name of Jesus is the one being baptized:

Acts 22:10-16 (NKJV)

10 So I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.'
11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.
12 Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there,
13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that same hour I looked up at him.
14 Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.
15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.
16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

This would be consistent with Jewish proselyte baptism. Additionally, Acts 2:38 begins:

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;

I'm pretty sure we can all agree that a Pastor doesn't "repent" for anyone. And with regard to this:

Luke 24:45-47 (NKJV)
45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 11:18 (NKJV)
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
All of that to say: Biblical vs. Interpretation

So let's say there is a church and a person comes to that church, hears the Gospel, and wishes to be saved and become a follower of Christ. So this person is invited to come into the baptismal water, confess Jesus Christ as "the Son of God who is God, who the Father sent into the world that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life," that this Jesus was crucified for our sins, died, and was buried but raised from the dead. This person confesses that they are a sinner and ask Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins through his sacrifice. And what is more is following the Jewish tradition, this person immerses himself in the baptismal water.

There is no need for me to go further. My point is that I believe what I just described is much closer to a baptism as found in Scripture (literally) than what you have described. No, I'm not trying to debate this, I don't even want to, I'm making a point about "Biblical something" vs "Interpretation of something." So I understand that Oneness believe their way of doing baptism is Biblical...but I can pretty much assure you that others who do it differently believe their baptism is Biblical as well. A lot of writing to try to make that point I know, sorry but if you read this far, hopefully you understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Prayer for them to receive the Holy Spirit would take place immediately after if they had not received the Spirit earlier.
I actually began a thread regarding this aspect. BTW, while I do not agree with Pentecostals regarding "initial evidence" (I say Pentecostals as unless they have changed it I believe the AOG is very similar if not the same), I do believe that at baptism the pastor/elders should lay on hands and pray the the person is empowered and gifted by the Holy Spirit for God's purpose and glory.

Anyway Essaias, thank you for your response. I am going to copy and paste that if that is standard in Oneness and UPCI churches, I'm not sure anyone has ever laid out the exact Oneness baptismal liturgy before, so again I thank you.

TheLayman
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:08 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Oneness and Acts 2:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLayman View Post
First Esaias, thank-you very much. In my discussions with Oneness Pentecostals I made a rule for myself which is try to "assume nothing," it is much easier to ask. And the reason I was asking this question came from the Billy Graham thread in that there seemed to be a little disagreement as to whether Oneness Pentecostals practice a Biblical Baptism exactly as it is described in Scripture whereas most others do not, or whether Oneness Pentecostals practice a Baptism based on their interpretation of Scripture since an actual baptism is never described in Scripture. And that's why my last question in the opening post was: "And exactly how is each step 'Biblical?'" You didn't do that but that's okay, I will make an honest attempt to do so on your behalf (if you want to add something that's great). I will not be exhaustive, just making the affirmative case for you where ever I can and where I can't you can respond if you so desire. And I'm not trying to debate (I have read a great many debates on baptism over the years, don't need to do that) but I am going to examine that question as best I can.



A passage which affirms this quite clearly:

Romans 10:8-11 (NKJV)
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
And to finish up, Acts 2:22-24, 36:

Acts 2:22-24, 36 (NKJV)

22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it...
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."




Okay, I think the most obvious passage of reference here is Acts 2:38-39:

Acts 2:38-39 (NKJV)
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
And so Oneness understand this to mean that during baptism the name of "Jesus Christ" is literally to be audibly spoken, and it can certainly be read that way, so we can say that this is literally Biblical regardless of how someone else may read it. What I do not see and what I cannot find is the Bible saying that anyone besides the person receiving baptism needs to confess it (and you did already include this need in the profession of faith). What you have added to baptism is your ecclesiology and what the pastor does during baptism. However, as I said, according to the Bible the one who needs to call on the name of Jesus is the one being baptized:

Acts 22:10-16 (NKJV)

10 So I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.'
11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.
12 Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there,
13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that same hour I looked up at him.
14 Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.
15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.
16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

This would be consistent with Jewish proselyte baptism. Additionally, Acts 2:38 begins:

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;

I'm pretty sure we can all agree that a Pastor doesn't "repent" for anyone. And with regard to this:

Luke 24:45-47 (NKJV)
45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 11:18 (NKJV)
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
All of that to say: Biblical vs. Interpretation

So let's say there is a church and a person comes to that church, hears the Gospel, and wishes to be saved and become a follower of Christ. So this person is invited to come into the baptismal water, confess Jesus Christ as "the Son of God who is God, who the Father sent into the world that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life," that this Jesus was crucified for our sins, died, and was buried but raised from the dead. This person confesses that they are a sinner and ask Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins through his sacrifice. And what is more is following the Jewish tradition, this person immerses himself in the baptismal water.

There is no need for me to go further. My point is that I believe what I just described is much closer to a baptism as found in Scripture (literally) than what you have described. No, I'm not trying to debate this, I don't even want to, I'm making a point about "Biblical something" vs "Interpretation of something." So I understand that Oneness believe their way of doing baptism is Biblical...but I can pretty much assure you that others who do it differently believe their baptism is Biblical as well. A lot of writing to try to make that point I know, sorry but if you read this far, hopefully you understand.



I actually began a thread regarding this aspect. BTW, while I do not agree with Pentecostals regarding "initial evidence" (I say Pentecostals as unless they have changed it I believe the AOG is very similar if not the same), I do believe that at baptism the pastor/elders should lay on hands and pray the the person is empowered and gifted by the Holy Spirit for God's purpose and glory.

Anyway Essaias, thank you for your response. I am going to copy and paste that if that is standard in Oneness and UPCI churches, I'm not sure anyone has ever laid out the exact Oneness baptismal liturgy before, so again I thank you.

TheLayman
If you wish to believe Pharisaic tradition regarding proselyte mikvah is "more Biblical" then you are placing yourself outside all historic streams of Christian faith. Not to mention outside Biblical doctrine. Mikvah requires one to "immerse oneself". Bible baptism is done with one person baptizing another. Thus, baptism and mikvah are not the same..But since we're not debating...

BTW, Acts 22:16 is the basis for my statement "and prayer to be saved". I probably wasn't clear WHO is to make this prayer (it is the person being baptized).
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