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  #81  
Old 10-02-2019, 06:57 PM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Biblically, God has placed men in leadership roles, and they are indispensable in their role. Women have an indispensable supporting role.

I see women as a mainstay and glue that holds all together.
We are the keepers of the home. We are the main ones who raise and teach the next generation, the future leaders of the church and the world.
We are the ones who make life joyous in facilitating fellowship through the ministry of hospitality. We support other women in their roles as wives and mothers.

We also have an important role, like the Samarian women at the well, to go tell all what Jesus has done for us, sharing the gospel and testifying to the lost.
Via prayer and fasting God directs and leads us to be a witness for him as we go about our day.

Women are vital to the kingdom of God.
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  #82  
Old 10-02-2019, 07:39 PM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
Okay, so Bro. Cunningham, Brother Bernard and Stoneking are wrong and you don't walk in unity with the UPCI. Got it!
And? What is the UPCI compared to the Body of Christ? To the Kingdom of God?

Furthermore, have you never read the compliment paid to our Lord Jesus, how He didn't regard the person of any man (Matthew 22:16 and Mark 12:14)?

See also Galatians 2:6. These men, with whom I have no personal affiliation or particular issue with, nonetheless, add nothing to me, regardless of who they are.

Quote:
diakonos
dee-ak'-on-os
Probably from διάκω diakō (obsolete, to run on errands; compare G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.

The term "deacon" is applied to Phoebe and probably designates an "office" as it does in Philippians 1:1 "Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:"

It can also mean "minister" in the same sense that Paul uses it elsewhere of himself and others:

I Cor 3:5 "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?"

2 Cor. 3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

2 Cor. 6:4 " But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,"

Your being stuck on numbers, i.e., wanting a list of women in the Bible, doesn't change anything.
You realize that, as Peter showed, diakonos is a multivalent term. And not only this, is gendered as applied to a man or a woman? When gendered to men, the definition you gave above applies. When gendered to a woman, it refers to the very things Peter wrote.

Take another read through 1 Timothy 3 for the qualifications Paul lays out for deacons, and you will see those qualifications apply to men only, thus showing the difference. Then take a look at 1 Timothy 5 regarding widows and young women. The widows who Paul commends to the church dole are not commended for preaching and teaching, but for charitable contributions to the lives of the saints. The younger women Paul orders as follows:

1.) Get married
2.) Have children
3.) Guide the affairs of their household
4.) Don't live in such a way that the devil could reproach them

Is this inspired text or just one man's opinion? Did the Holy Spirit tell Paul to write these injunctions or not?

And what are so many young women of today in Pentecost, particularly the UPCI told?

1.) You can preach and teach as much as any man. Deborah Project, anyone?
2.) Go to college and get a degree
3.) Find a career/pursue your calling

Which is right? Which is Holy Scripture? Which then pleases God? Which pleases flesh?

Finally, as far as numbers go, you below explain how Priscilla's name is listed 6 times before Aquila's, like it means something important. So, who's caught up on numbers?

The fact is, is if your position was right, it would be thoroughly maintained from Genesis to Revelation. Instead you have a handful of stretched beyond the limits of credibility examples that don't jive at all with the rest of the testimony of Scripture, just to fit your modernized, liberated view of women's roles and rights in the church ("The NT emancipated women...").

Quote:
It is used in the sense of a spiritual gift and also speaking an inspired message.
And what's that got to do with preaching and teaching in the church?

The reality is, prophesy in Joel 2:28 is used in the prophetic sense of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance per Simon's quote of it in Acts 2:17. Do you really think that when someone, a woman no less, is speaking in tongues for the first time as he or she receives the Holy Spirit, that means they are preaching and teaching in the sense of administering the Word of God?

For real?

So, when little children receive the Holy Spirit and speak with other tongues, they are now preachers and teachers of the Word, and all the adults and elder should heed them and their instruction?

Besides all this, no one even understands what people are saying when they prophesy under the auspices of Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17, so the point is clear:

They are not preaching, or teaching. This is just another unjustified stretch.

Quote:
We can also talk about Priscilla whose role in the church may account for her name coming before her husband's in four of six references - Acts 18:18; Romans 16:3 (notice both Priscilla and Phoebe are mentioned in this chapter); 2 Timothy 4:19.
Her role MAY account? All these things you are writing are couched in terms of supposition and possibility. That is, GUESSES. That's all you've got are guesses? Where's the sure word of prophecy? Where's if anyone speaks, let them speak as the oracles of God?

How can anyone think that just because Priscilla's name is written first that some major doctrine of the Bible is being revealed? Shall we then find all examples where one word or name is listed before another and make a teaching out of it? That's how rabbis derive their Talmudic mysteries, but that's not how Apostolics exegete the Word.

Quote:
The bold shows where you truly enter the conversation. How blind.
Just be real, here. You can't possibly believe 1 Timothy 2:11-12 means what it states.

Note the text carefully:

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

How is a woman going to do this with a microphone in her hand as she sermonizes a room full of men?

But I suffer not a woman to teach,

This is an independent clause, meaning, it stands on its own without needing any additional information to be added. If Paul didn't go on to write anything else after this, it would stand true on its own merits. Meaning, independently of what comes after, Paul doesn't allow women to teach in the church, period. End of story.

nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

This is a dependent clause, that is, it depends on the independent clause that proceeds it. Meaning, this clause is not merely defined and understood on its own merits, but only in relation to the previous comments, that is, "I suffer not a woman to teach".

Now, notice this next part, because it is key:

See Paul's use of "nor"? It is in Greek from the word οὐδὲ, or oude. It is a compound of ou (meaning "not") and de (meaning moreover).

As such, it rightly reads "nor", not "or" in English. So then, what is the "moreover" that a woman is "not" to do? Moreover refers to the independent clause. Not only is a woman not to usurp authority over a man, but she is not even to teach. Why?

Because teaching is the purview of men only. For a woman, any woman, to teach the church is an automatic failure because it automatically usurps the authority given by God to men alone.

So you can't have a woman teaching and not usurping at the same time. A woman teaching and usurping is sine qua non with each other. Hence, the turn of a phrase I employed regarding ministerial man-pants is entirely justified here, even if you find it unpalatable.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/2-12.htm
See: https://biblehub.com/greek/3761.htm

Quote:
And this is where we disagree.
Fair enough.

Quote:
I Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

This verse is referring to Genesis 3:16 "And thy desire shall be to they husband, and he shall rule over thee."

It isn't specifically speaking of sexual things, as is apparent.
No, it refers to the law of the synagogue, specifically to the law of the mechizah, as an outgrowth of the temple structure of women being separated from men, having their own court specific to them.

And as far as the sexual imagery goes, the phrase "thy desire shall be" is where the text is at. It's the same desire sin had toward Cain. And so, whenever a woman lusts in her heart to rule over and usurp a man and his God-given role, it's because sin has already lusted after her and conquered her, just like Cain. Therefore, God instituted that men shall forever rule over women. It protects women from the works of their flesh and the deceivableness of sin that is always present.

Quote:
Okay. I agree that you are wrong.


Touche.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 10-02-2019 at 07:45 PM.
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  #83  
Old 10-02-2019, 07:47 PM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

Peter from Greece!

You are doing a great job in this thread. Thank you for your contributions!
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  #84  
Old 10-03-2019, 06:54 AM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
Sorry sister ,that i write you again (i dont know why,but you never respond back to me!! maybe you did not saw it, but iven if you have nothing to say, you can always say one "thanks)
Thanks.
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  #85  
Old 10-03-2019, 07:19 AM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
And? What is the UPCI compared to the Body of Christ? To the Kingdom of God?

Furthermore, have you never read the compliment paid to our Lord Jesus, how He didn't regard the person of any man (Matthew 22:16 and Mark 12:14)?

See also Galatians 2:6. These men, with whom I have no personal affiliation or particular issue with, nonetheless, add nothing to me, regardless of who they are.
My point is that you stressed that it is unbiblical not to be in unity. I am in unity with the body that God has placed me in.


Quote:
You realize that, as Peter showed, diakonos is a multivalent term. And not only this, is gendered as applied to a man or a woman? When gendered to men, the definition you gave above applies. When gendered to a woman, it refers to the very things Peter wrote.

Take another read through 1 Timothy 3 for the qualifications Paul lays out for deacons, and you will see those qualifications apply to men only, thus showing the difference. Then take a look at 1 Timothy 5 regarding widows and young women. The widows who Paul commends to the church dole are not commended for preaching and teaching, but for charitable contributions to the lives of the saints. The younger women Paul orders as follows:

1.) Get married
2.) Have children
3.) Guide the affairs of their household
4.) Don't live in such a way that the devil could reproach them

Is this inspired text or just one man's opinion? Did the Holy Spirit tell Paul to write these injunctions or not?

And what are so many young women of today in Pentecost, particularly the UPCI told?

1.) You can preach and teach as much as any man. Deborah Project, anyone?
2.) Go to college and get a degree
3.) Find a career/pursue your calling

Which is right? Which is Holy Scripture? Which then pleases God? Which pleases flesh?

Finally, as far as numbers go, you below explain how Priscilla's name is listed 6 times before Aquila's, like it means something important. So, who's caught up on numbers?

The fact is, is if your position was right, it would be thoroughly maintained from Genesis to Revelation. Instead you have a handful of stretched beyond the limits of credibility examples that don't jive at all with the rest of the testimony of Scripture, just to fit your modernized, liberated view of women's roles and rights in the church ("The NT emancipated women...").
Speaking to women in general doesn't mean that they do not have various roles, such as the Elect Lady in 2 John, Priscilla, Phoebe, Phillip the evangelist's daughters in Acts 21, and others not mentioned. We know there would be more, as the NT mentions other men, but not all who were doing a work for God. The NT doesn't even have room for the books written on the things that Jesus performed.

And, BTW, Deborah held a position as a Judge in the OT. She served ancient Israel as a prophet, judge, military leader, songwriter, and minstrel (Judges 4–5). If God was so against women in a leadership role, what about her?


Quote:
And what's that got to do with preaching and teaching in the church?

The reality is, prophesy in Joel 2:28 is used in the prophetic sense of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance per Simon's quote of it in Acts 2:17. Do you really think that when someone, a woman no less, is speaking in tongues for the first time as he or she receives the Holy Spirit, that means they are preaching and teaching in the sense of administering the Word of God?

For real?

So, when little children receive the Holy Spirit and speak with other tongues, they are now preachers and teachers of the Word, and all the adults and elder should heed them and their instruction?

Besides all this, no one even understands what people are saying when they prophesy under the auspices of Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17, so the point is clear:

They are not preaching, or teaching. This is just another unjustified stretch.
I never once said that someone that is speaking in tongues is preaching. Now you are the one stretching what I said.

The definition means to foretell future events and to speak under inspiration, which is what we call an anointing or an anointed message.

Quote:
Her role MAY account? All these things you are writing are couched in terms of supposition and possibility. That is, GUESSES. That's all you've got are guesses? Where's the sure word of prophecy? Where's if anyone speaks, let them speak as the oracles of God?

How can anyone think that just because Priscilla's name is written first that some major doctrine of the Bible is being revealed? Shall we then find all examples where one word or name is listed before another and make a teaching out of it? That's how rabbis derive their Talmudic mysteries, but that's not how Apostolics exegete the Word.



Just be real, here. You can't possibly believe 1 Timothy 2:11-12 means what it states.

Note the text carefully:

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

How is a woman going to do this with a microphone in her hand as she sermonizes a room full of men?

But I suffer not a woman to teach,

This is an independent clause, meaning, it stands on its own without needing any additional information to be added. If Paul didn't go on to write anything else after this, it would stand true on its own merits. Meaning, independently of what comes after, Paul doesn't allow women to teach in the church, period. End of story.

nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

This is a dependent clause, that is, it depends on the independent clause that proceeds it. Meaning, this clause is not merely defined and understood on its own merits, but only in relation to the previous comments, that is, "I suffer not a woman to teach".

Now, notice this next part, because it is key:

See Paul's use of "nor"? It is in Greek from the word οὐδὲ, or oude. It is a compound of ou (meaning "not") and de (meaning moreover).

As such, it rightly reads "nor", not "or" in English. So then, what is the "moreover" that a woman is "not" to do? Moreover refers to the independent clause. Not only is a woman not to usurp authority over a man, but she is not even to teach. Why?

Because teaching is the purview of men only. For a woman, any woman, to teach the church is an automatic failure because it automatically usurps the authority given by God to men alone.

So you can't have a woman teaching and not usurping at the same time. A woman teaching and usurping is sine qua non with each other. Hence, the turn of a phrase I employed regarding ministerial man-pants is entirely justified here, even if you find it unpalatable.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/2-12.htm
See: https://biblehub.com/greek/3761.htm
And, again, when the Bible speaks in generalities, it doesn't mean that a woman doesn't have her role. If she is not usurping her husband's authority, then she is good.

I happen to be in a body that supports a woman's calling. I have never seen it cause disunity in the body. I am sure there have been problems, as I have seen problems with men in leadership, but that doesn't discount the issue of either having a calling to preach or teach.

Quote:
No, it refers to the law of the synagogue, specifically to the law of the mechizah, as an outgrowth of the temple structure of women being separated from men, having their own court specific to them.

And as far as the sexual imagery goes, the phrase "thy desire shall be" is where the text is at. It's the same desire sin had toward Cain. And so, whenever a woman lusts in her heart to rule over and usurp a man and his God-given role, it's because sin has already lusted after her and conquered her, just like Cain. Therefore, God instituted that men shall forever rule over women. It protects women from the works of their flesh and the deceivableness of sin that is always present.
I gave you the NT scripture that references Genesis in the OT. Nothing to add to that. It couldn't be any plainer.

Quote:



Touche.


Well, I don't see us having anything else to say on the subject. Thanks for the participation.

I will pray that God will open your eyes to the Oneness, because you only have two choices - Oneness or Trinitarianism. Since you are an Admin on an Apostolic forum, I hope you can figure that out.
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Last edited by Pressing-On; 10-03-2019 at 07:35 AM.
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  #86  
Old 10-03-2019, 09:52 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
Thanks.
i mean thank God for the Truth not me ,... till now you avoid the Word but if you receive it finally , you must be thankful .
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  #87  
Old 10-03-2019, 10:01 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Peter from Greece!

You are doing a great job in this thread. Thank you for your contributions!
Thanks God for you.
i think i will use you to speak to Pressing-On through you this subject make her shake so i wait till she comes down.
Happy i see people speak the Truth . One Spirit,One faith!
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  #88  
Old 10-03-2019, 03:49 PM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

The irony of this thread is palpable.

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