Logos Doctrine And The UPC

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If all things were made by the Word, and the Word was made, then the Word made the Word. Which means the Word was around before it was made.

Either that, or the Word wasn't made, but was GOD and therefore not made.

Seems pretty simple to me. Too simple for some, though?

Yes, short an easy answer to help the student grow. Nothing about pre existing body which was created before "let there be light." Or Satan piloting a flying saucer and landing on the White House lawn to deceive the masses. Just easy simple explanation which keeps everyone seated and ready for more Bible study.

[Michael The Disciple]

All leading to Trinitarianism and Twinitarianism. All these individuals like Mike separate the Word from God, because instead of taking into account the whole counsel of God, they get stuck on one verse.

Do I separate the Logos from God? No more than the Apostle John did.

John 1:1-2

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

There was something in the beginning that was distinct from God. Whatever the something was it was God himself.

Distinct from God and yet God.

Verse 3

All things were made by HIM and without HIM was not anything made that was made.

Whatever the something was that was WITH GOD was PERSONAL. All things were made by HIM.

Whatever was with God was personal.

And the word WAS GOD.

The literal Greek reads and God was the word.

How can the something (that was personal) be distinct from God and yet is himself God?

God in his omnipresence, his essence is invisible to creation. How do we know this?

1 Kings 8:27

27But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

The Heaven of heavens (think galaxies) is to small to contain him. How do you see that?

So remember the word that was WITH GOD was God himself. Not another God. Not another person.

The word was God.
God was the word.

He formed an image from himself. A PERSONAL IMAGE.

Distinct FROM HIM in that it would be VISIBLE while he in his essence would continue to be INVISIBLE.

Since the form would be his image it would be HIMSELF just in a reduced visible form.

Not 2 distinct GOD PERSONS. One God in two modes of being simultaneously! The two modes of being were visible and invisible.

Thats what Paul meant when he spoke of the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation.

Col. 1:13-17

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Paul says the same thing of the image of the invisible God the firstborn of every creature that John said of the Logos.

The Logos created all things.
The Son who is called the image of the invisible God created all things.

Are they different "things"?

No the Apostles speak of the same thing.

The Son was the image of GODS PERSON......NOT ANOTHER GOD PERSON.

Paul taught the same thing to the Hebrews.

Heb. 1:1-3

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

See how smoothly John 1, Col. 1, and Hebrews 1 fit together?

John has the Logos as a person, he and him making all things.

Paul has the image of the invisible God creating all things.

Its the same thing.

Modern Oneness has made a mistake in boxing themselves into a concept that SON only.......and.....always.....refers to the man Christ Jesus.

Thats a good concept except for the fact Jesus, John and Paul all prove its to limiting.

We have shown that Paul twice says God made all things BY HIS SON.

Modern Oneness must answer the question then did Jesus Christ create the Universe AS A MAN? AS FLESH?

Or as the visible image God used as a form to work through? An image he would SPEAK THROUGH?

And the logos was God,

or,

God was the logos.

Distinct not as God persons but visible and invisible.

The omnipresent Spirit himself dwelled in the form.

So yes.

The logos WAS GOD. God working from a certain location, the image, as distinct from him working from his omnipresence.

We have already seen that Paul crashes the concept that SON can only be referring to man or flesh.

Now we will see how John recording Jesus words would not be teaching this concept.

John 3:13

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus Christ told Nicodemus the son of man is STILL IN HEAVEN!

Let that sink in. If the son of man was here on the earth as a man, Jesus said to Nic he was STILL IN HEAVEN.

Jesus knew he was the Son of man BEFORE he came to Earth. Was the Son which Jesus said was STILL IN HEAVEN flesh? A man?

Jesus did not deny he was the Son before he came to Earth.

No Trinitarian or Arian on earth teaches this doctrine. Only Oneness.

Part 1

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

No Trinitarian or Arian on earth teaches this doctrine. Only Oneness.

Part 1

Mike, you teach that God created a body and got into the body to say "let there be light. You have (1) God (2) logos, both are two separate things. This is what I do with your cousins the Gee Dubs, I tell them they believe in Jehovah, the Jehovah Angel, and the Holy Ghost, all are three things which work together. Trinity? Yes, whether they believe that Jesus or the Holy Ghost are god or persons doesn't not negate their threeness. You believe that in the beginning was the image created, it was called the logos, and the logos was separate from He who created it. God got into the logos in the beginning and said "let there be light." That is two, which the apostles and Old Testament saints didn't believe or teach.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Do I separate the Logos from God? No more than the Apostle John did.

John 1:1-2

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

There was something in the beginning that was distinct from God. Whatever the something was it was God himself.

Distinct from God and yet God.

You are reading into the verse that John is saying that the word is distinct from God. That is your assumption. Then you move on to conjecture. In Greek, English or Spanish it is telling us that the Word or verbos was in the very beginning it was God. Not two gods, not two anything, and that is where your doctrine takes its merry trip down Charles Russel Lane.

[Michael The Disciple]

Part 2

The Apostles understood the image of the invisible God more fully than most Oneness Pentecostals today. They have been taught the Son only refers to Jesus in flesh. While this is somewhat true neither they nor Jesus made this concept into a doctrine.

Isaiah 44:24

24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

YHWH said he made all things ALONE AND BY HIMSELF.

The image of the invisible God was not someone else.

IT WAS GODS VISIBLE SELF.

There was no God beside him. As omnipresent Spirit he had no specific location. As the image he sat on a throne and commanded and sent angels.

This was Gods SELF. HIS PERSON.

Eph. 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Paul taught the Ephesians God created all things BY JESUS CHRIST.

If YHWH created all things by Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was the IMAGE OF GOD for he created all things ALONE AND BY HIMSELF.

The image was with God and the image was God.

Paul writes of this form to the Philippians.

Phil 2:5-8

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Being in the form of God Christ knew he was everything God was. He was not robbing God by knowing this. He WAS.... GOD.

But he humbled himself and laid aside the form of God and took for him the LIKENESS of men.

The word likeness means "form".

The Logos went from the form of God to the form of men.

As a man Jesus fully obeyed God (the omnipresent Spirit) and God highly exalted him making the man Jesus Christ all that the he was before as the image.

Col. 2:9

For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

As a man now he is the image of the invisible God.

[mfblume]

This issue is of no practical value.

Carry on.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This issue is of no practical value.

Carry on.

This is a case study in how trinitarianism came about.

[Michael The Disciple]

Dom

You are reading into the verse that John is saying that the word is distinct from God

John 1:2

The same was in the beginning WITH GOD.

See?

[Esaias]

"Paul writes of this form to the Philippians.

Phil 2:5-8

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Being in the form of God Christ knew he was everything God was. He was not robbing God by knowing this. He WAS.... GOD.

But he humbled himself and laid aside the form of God and took for him the LIKENESS of men."

Trinitarian kenosis mumbo jumbo.

Phil 2 isnt about incarnation, it is an example of Paul's Adam Christology, whereby Christ recapitulates Adam's role reversing the first man's disobedience and thus becoming the new Adam by whom mankind is delivered from the Curse.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Dom



John 1:2

The same was in the beginning WITH GOD.

See?

Eternal life which was WITH the Father. Is Eternal Life a separate thing from God?