McCain Is the Only Hope of the GOP & America

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

The church, in abandoning culture and ceasing to be a relevant force, has left the state to be our messiah. We criticize socialism, rightly so, but we've married her twin sister.

Unless we realize that only through the Gospel and the living out of the Lordship of Christ can we bring real change to our society we are as lost as the old Soviet Union.

Yes!

Always enjoy reading your thoughts RD. Have I mentioned that before?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Felicity, where are you from?

From one of the greatest nations in the world -- CANADA!

But partnered with another of the greatest seein's how I'm married to an American.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

The Republicans have formed such a solid alliance with the Religious Right in the United States that anything not Republican is branded "evil". It's sad really. I used to be a die hard Republican but traveling outside of the US opened my eyes to a few things.

Really!! Haha! Like what for example?

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by scotty

I never said it would affect your family, I stated the "value of a family" or family values as a whole.

Pro-choice

Gay marriage

Gay rights to adoption

Removing "God" from schools while teaching Islam for the sake of "understanding"

It is these special intrest groups that support mostly Democratic candidates, However I will be the first to admit that Romney is no roll model either.

As for my family, experience has proven that while I had a steady and secure job during Democratic times, I rarely saw increases financially. Where as the last 8 years has been rewarding for my family. Personally I have seen an increase in my wages of 84% in just the past 6 years.


BTW--miss you over at the AM forum Bro.

Ok...let's continue because we didn't get to the heart of the question. We'll go into a little more detail here.

How do Democratic policies destroy the value of the family in general?

You listed a number of issues. But these issues are social issues that are with us with or without the Democratic Party. In all these subjects I can see where we Christians are offended. But I really don't see how these subjects "destroy the value of the family".

How does a woman having the final say regarding abortion destroy the value of the family? Is government the answer? Why not address the socio economic issues women are facing that cause them to consider abortion?

Gay marriage is flaky...if I were their pastor I'd advise they attend another church if they wanted to marry...but are private arrangements between private citizens my business?

Gay adoption is definately questionable...but most gays aren't going to choose to adopt.

Does religion belong in public schools?

I was in People to People International and participated in foreign youth exchange. I was also the first Junion to become President of the International Club in high school. I remember the classes on foreign cultures and languages. When it comes to the Middle East, one has to know a little about Islam to understand Middle Eastern culture.

And in closing...all these issues are state issues. Regardless...how do these destroy the value of the family?

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Really!! Haha! Like what for example?

Don't get me started. lol

Let's put it this way...I had a solid "Sicko" experience before Michael Moore put "Sicko" on the market.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Ok...let's continue because we didn't get to the heart of the question. We'll go into a little more detail here.

How do Democratic policies destroy the value of the family in general?

You listed a number of issues. But these issues are social issues that are with us with or without the Democratic Party.

Pro-Choice just means that the decision to abort is left in the individual woman's hands. This is a complex issue. I've read cases where severely deformed fetus could present a danger to the mother. The doctor advises an abortion. But the choice is left in the mother's hands. Right or wrong...do you believe the government should be making that choice for her or do you believe that life sometimes calls for life or death decisions? I had to choose to allow my mother to pass when doctors explained that the odds were against her heart recovering from a major heart attack. She wasn't a candidate for a transplant and the choice was keep pounding on her until she can't be brought back to see if she MIGHT stablize or just let her pass in peace. I chose to let her pass in peace. It was the hardest decision I ever made...but it was mine to make seeing that I am her son. I was in the military for 8 years and I've had to make other very difficult decisions. Maybe some decisions can be so complex the government is best left out of it. I'm not saying abortion is a good thing...I'm just saying that a case can be made that the government shouldn't get involved, especially if a woman's health is an issue. One might say, "But what about only allowing it in situations endangering health?" That's often the interpretation of the doctor. A woman might have one doctor advise her that an abortion might be necessary. Another doctor might interpret the situation differently and say that an abortion isn't that necessary in the situation. Notice that in each case it's outside medical professionals steering the situation. A woman could find herself in a virtual tug of war between medical professionals and government intervention. Also you have to ask if we banned abortion what is the penalty imposed on women who procure them? No one I know would advodate putting a woman in prison for an abortion. A fine just reduces the value of human life to the something like a parking ticket. The issue is ugly and very difficult...but is government the answer or should the ultimate choice be left in the hands of the woman in question?

Gay marriage...yuck. A lezbian couple lives down the street from my wife and I. Our families are not in church and we have close gay friends of the family. Like it or not...these folks are gay. Nothing is going to make them straight. They are living together and yes they are having sexual relations (again yuck). But they are American citizens and have a right to live as they choose though I disagree with the lifestyle. These people want to have a private marriage contract drawn up between them. Is it really my business? Is it your business? I'd like to sprinkle magic fairy dust and make them straight but I can't. Do we deport them? They are here like it or not. Also you have liberal churches and religions that feel that it is a violation of their religious freedom to forbid them to marry gay couples. I know it's weird...but not every religion or even Christian denomination agrees with our interpretation of the Scriptures. Must we use the police power of law to force them to practice what we believe is right? WHILE I DON'T AGREE WITH THE GAY LIFESTYLE, these are social questions I ask myself. What is the answer? Should government be in the business of telling Americans who they can or cannot marry? Is the government the answer? Right now in the United States the most dangerous threat to marriage are no-fault divorce laws. These allow couples to divorce rather easily. These laws were launched and largely supported by Ronald Reagan when he was governor of California. We have an issue in the straight community when it comes to marriage. We are dealing with epidemic unfaithfulness and financial ruin of the family. These are the issues that should be addressed. In the past 5 years I've seen five families crumble after adultery. But I've not heard a single sermon on it. I've heard 40 minute rants against gays getting married but not a single sermon on adultery. Sometimes I wonder, are we making gay people a scape goat? Are we attacking something we're all comfortable attacking because we don't want to get closer to home and address the unfaithfullness and rampant pornographic addictions in our families. I'm not Pro-Homosexual....I'm just sharing some questions I often ask myself on the issue.

Gay Rights to Adoption. I honestly hate the idea of seeing a child being raised in a gay family. But here's the deal...most gays aren't out to adopt children.

I don't think that religion is something that should be taught in public schools. I'm confident that the religious upbringing of my kids is strong enough to allow them to learn about other faiths while maintaining their Christian roots. But when it comes to Islam, I was President of the International Club when I was in High School. I was the first Junior to become President of that club in like eight years or something at the time. I was also a part of People to People International and participated in foreign youth exchange. We had classes on Islam, Animism, Buddhism and other religions. It was to garner respect and understanding between us. Islam isn't a religion like Christianity, it's a culture. You cannot understand Middle Eastern culture without understanding Islam. You also can't just say, "I'm a Muslim" and "poof" be a Muslim. A Muslim must know Arabic and many other things. All I've seen in the public schools is an exercize to understand what Muslims believe. Seeing that we are going to have to deal with them as a people politically and diplomatically in the future it might be wise that our children know who they are and what they believe. Some may argue that some kids might be swayed into Islam out of mere interest. True...but these are kids without any structured religious upbringing at home. It might be better that they become Muslim that drug dealers.

Scotty, you mentioned your economic well being. I'm curious...what do you do? I worked in information technology and I had all three of my jobs given to foreign technicians. I now work for the government. I spend most of my days tracking invoices and watching companies that are violating government contracts and ripping off the tax payer. In the past five years I've seen a virtual explosion of companies trying to violate contracts and sell the tax payer short.

In all these subjects I can see where we Christians are offended. But I really don't see how these subjects "destroy the value of the family".

First of all, as one who works every day in a NICU, there are no conditions that I'm aware of, that a baby affects the life of the mother in such a way as we MUST take a baby, that will surely die, to save the life of the mother. I've seen many babies born premature that we've saved or have tried to save. Even an ectopic pregnancy can be carried until the baby is taken via c-section or until rupture and it can be dealt with in a controlled situation.

As far as the death of an terminally ill person, you're mixing apples and oranges. Allowing nature to take it's coarse is far different from electively
ending the life a another person.

Gay adoption; you speak from ignorance again. I've seen many gay couple adopt children and I know some personally. I seen them hire a surrogate parent and take the baby(usually twins) home from my unit. It happens often.

I'd love to know your philosophical presupposition as to your interesting worldview. It does not appear to be Biblical.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Yes!

Always enjoy reading your thoughts RD. Have I mentioned that before?

You have but even your thinking is clouded! (LOL)


Thanks.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Ok...let's continue because we didn't get to the heart of the question. We'll go into a little more detail here.

How do Democratic policies destroy the value of the family in general?

You listed a number of issues. But these issues are social issues that are with us with or without the Democratic Party. In all these subjects I can see where we Christians are offended. But I really don't see how these subjects "destroy the value of the family".

True, but you can't deny that the Democratic Party's stance on these issues have not given them more press and power to stand.

Because we as christians value marriage as man and woman, we value life. If socially we become an accepting culture of these issues then our children are even more tempted by immorality. And I know there are alot of "ifs" that could follow that statement , (if you raise your child right then it won't matter, etc.).

What if I changed that statement to "they support issues that destroy the value of a Christian family"?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

ChristopherHall, your social views are almost as troubling ethically as your wild insistance on Government taking care of our healthcare mess.

Yes, decent Government should say that for two members of the same sex to be together is morally wrong. Any Christian I would say should also.

The taking of life is wrong. Why does it become the choice of a woman to take a life when she has made a very poor choice of morals? The Bible does condemn some things soundly. Flee fornication is an admonition that comes to mind.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

First of all, as one who works every day in a NICU, there are no conditions that I'm aware of, that a baby affects the life of the mother in such a way as we MUST take a baby, that will surely die, to save the life of the mother. I've seen many babies born premature that we've saved or have tried to save. Even an ectopic pregnancy can be carried until the baby is taken via c-section or until rupture and it can be dealt with in a controlled situation.

I agree that it would be an extremely rare case in which a woman might need an abortion. That doesn't remove the main focus of my question. Why not address the issues women face that cause them to choose abortion instead of just focusing on banning it? If banning abortion was the answer why was the abortion rate higher before Roe than it is now? There are countries that have made abortion extremely rare while allowing women to maintain the right of choice.

As far as the death of an terminally ill person, you're mixing apples and oranges. Allowing nature to take it's coarse is far different from electively
ending the life a another person.

Let's assume we ban abortion tomorrow. What would be the criminal penalty imposed on a woman for procuring an abortion?

Gay adoption; you speak from ignorance again. I've seen many gay couple adopt children and I know some personally. I seen them hire a surrogate parent and take the baby(usually twins) home from my unit. It happens often.

What state and city do you work in? I don't doubt that you see this, I'm just skeptical as to it's overall prevalence throughout the United States. For example a person might see this more often in San Fransico California when compared to Columbus Ohio. It's very rare around here.

I'd love to know your philosophical presupposition as to your interesting worldview. It does not appear to be Biblical.

My worldview is that we live in a fallen world. We are called to be individuals that preach the gospel. The world's system will never be holy and will never measure up to God's standards of righteousness. The idea behind Christian Reconstruction of our political system is a manipulative heresy employed by right wing extremists to control our voting habits.

When visiting other countries and seeing how their people live, the socio economic policies, such as health insurance, and even considering abortion rates I was amazed. We Americans are really hokey when it comes to politics.

I don't find Democratic or Republican politics as biblical. Both are biblically bankrupt. A biblical society would be distributist in it's economics and communal in it's social structure.