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  #11  
Old 06-01-2014, 06:29 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is online now
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Re: Marty Ballestero doesn't LIKE facial hair on m

It keeps good spirit baptized men from believing Oneness Pentecostal Ministers have anything to offer. If they are wrong on such an EASY issue how could they be right about anything else?

That and the "if women trim their hair its a sin" has caused multitudes to utterly reject Oneness truth.

Heck I AM ONENESS and I cant find a Church worth going to!

By the way, who is Marty?
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  #12  
Old 06-01-2014, 06:37 PM
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Re: Marty Ballestero doesn't LIKE facial hair on m

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
It keeps good spirit baptized men from believing Oneness Pentecostal Ministers have anything to offer. If they are wrong on such an EASY issue how could they be right about anything else?

That and the "if women trim their hair its a sin" has caused multitudes to utterly reject Oneness truth.

Heck I AM ONENESS and I cant find a Church worth going to!

By the way, who is Marty?
You don't know Marty? Why he's the coolest cat ever!
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #13  
Old 06-01-2014, 07:11 PM
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Re: Marty Ballestero doesn't LIKE facial hair on m

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Originally Posted by navygoat1998 View Post
I don't like facial hair on Pentecostal women.
Don't be messin' with my mustache now!
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  #14  
Old 06-01-2014, 07:22 PM
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Re: Marty Ballestero doesn't LIKE facial hair on m

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Originally Posted by MissBrattified View Post
To clarify: MB doesn't like facial hair on PENTECOSTAL men, because that's a really, really important distinction.

http://martynballestero.com/2014/05/...ntecostal-men/

Here I was thinking that THIS topic--maybe just THIS ONE--was finally a moot point. That maybe, just maybe, we were moving on from quibbling over men having hair on their faces in a teeny, tiny show of progress.

No, apparently not, and the new argument is not even a valid attempt at rehashing the old argument. It's simple regurgitation of the old, tired, "hippie movement" argument, with minimal effort at relabeling for a new decade. Now it's mainly that it comes with an "attitude", and "don't even get me started on tattoos", because obviously facial hair on men and tattoos go hand in hand. (Although the former is NATURAL and latter is an unnatural, permanent alteration of the human body. That doesn't matter at all, though.)

FYI, MB used zero scriptural support for his opinions. That's really only notable because we all know that if he had scripture to throw around, he would have definitely bombed us with it. It isn't surprising, though. Since when do we need scripture to make people feel inferior?

I plodded through this bit by bit last night, while I was trying to stay awake waiting on laundry to finish. Most of MB's blog excerpts are bolded below, with my comments following:

Point #1: "I don't like facial hair on pentecostal men."

I'm tempted to say, "Who cares?" but that seems flippant. Here's the deal: I don't particularly LIKE Crocs. You know--those uber-practical but super ugly waterproof rubber shoes that some people adore? Yeah. The fact that I don't like them doesn't make them WRONG for anyone, especially in the "That's a SIN" sense, so it pretty much stops with me having an opinion and that. is. all. I also don't LIKE BBQ all that much, which is quite a problem since my husband is a Magnificent BBQ Chef and calling THAT a sin would probably lead to a split right down the center of our household.

Bottom line: Likes and dislikes don't have anything to do with "sin" and "not sin" or even "beneficial/expedient" or "not beneficial/not expedient." For the amateurs out there, using the beneficial/expedient loophole is the pretty way of saying "I would prefer you not to do ______ simply because I don't like it. Based on the Apostle Paul's relevant comments, I have clearance to call it 'not expedient' and get away with bossing you around."

Point #2: Did They Have Facial Hair In Bible Days? Yes.

Well. Thanks for summing that up for us, MB. Nicely done. Next. No, wait--not so fast. There's more and it's better.

"...The wearing of beards was certainly mentioned in the Bible. The case could be made that most of our heroes in the Old Testament wore facial hair.

Did they have facial hair in the early days of Pentecostal outpouring in the 1900’s? Yes. Early Pentecostal pioneers such as Bro. Seymour and Bishop Haywood wore facial hair. We’ve seen the pictures.

However, in early Pentecost, especially in the white churches, there was a marked absence of beards. The beards seemed to disappear.

Many Hispanic and black men feel that wearing a mustache is symbolic of masculinity. So automatically the cultural thing is throw down like an non-debatable subject. Of course that debate ignores the church’s culture."


Hmm. Consider this opening paragraph:
"Look at the sculptures of Roman times. Look again at the statues of the Caesars. They depict Gentile men wearing short hair, and no beards. They were the style leaders of their day. They depicted the dress of their generation. Evidently the world custom at that was not beard wearing for all men, especially not Gentile men."

We can assume that MB is going to make the leap that current "church culture" is akin to the ancient Roman/Greek culture and that makes it okay to ban beards. Or some such mess. Unfortunately, he exposes one of the many holes in his own arguments with this: "Evidently the world custom at that [time?]...."

Excuse me, Sir, but are you attempting to argue against the allegedly worldly custom of beard-wearing by pointing out how it was the worldly custom of Romans/Greeks (aka, Gentiles) in New Testament times? Do I really need to point out how illogical that is? E.g., It is NOT okay to model your face after worldly customs of the present day, but it IS okay to model your face after worldly customs so long as they are ancient.

There's also another glaring problem here, in which MB reveals that he marks no distinction between church culture and white culture. When he points out that Hispanic and black men argue "culture" when it comes to facial hair and then says that the debate ignores "church culture", he means that he considers Hispanics and black churches to be separate from mainstream church culture. He may not have meant to say that, but it is certainly what he DID say.

Point #3: My Question Is, Why The Facial Hair Comeback?

Why now? Can we get some clarity here? It appears that for awhile there was a TREND of men being clean-shaven, and now that it's trying to fade, some ministers are trying to bring it back. [TIC]

What for? What for? That's like asking, "Why do you grow your eyebrows out? What for?"

What is gained in the Spirit by men wearing facial hair? What is gained in the Spirit by men shaving their faces?

How is the church strengthened by that acceptance? How is the church weakened by that acceptance?

Do Pentecostal men wear them because it’s popular in the world? Seriously? I see secular men every day who are clean shaven! Why, then, is it only called “worldly” or “popular in the world” if you want to have facial hair? Let's cherry pick what's worldly so it fits with the list of things we want to allow. Consistency be kicked to the curb.

How does it further outreach? Dear Lord. Have mercy. I can’t take the senseless questions.

Why did our new converts shave their beards and mustaches off when they got the Holy Ghost?

Simple: Because they wanted to look like everyone else at church, and they conformed. It doesn’t mean God spoke to them or they had a divine revelation or that HE convicted them. It means one of two things: Either they felt CONDEMNED by people around them who indicated they needed to shave OR it was silent peer pressure. That’s it. It wasn’t a God thing or else it would be backed up with scripture like every other doctrine we preach and teach. Right? We do our best to stick to scripture after the manner of real Apostolics...right? RIGHT?

[Cont.]
Yup. It seems that every time UPCer's like yourself, Hoovie, and Ferd have just about convinced yourself the UPC has become more moderate, logical, and biblical you come face to face with something like this that is a flashback to the decades I spent UPC!
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"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"

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"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."

Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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  #15  
Old 06-01-2014, 07:32 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Marty Ballestero doesn't LIKE facial hair on m

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1 View Post
Yup. It seems that every time UPCer's like yourself, Hoovie, and Ferd have just about convinced yourself the UPC has become more moderate, logical, and biblical you come face to face with something like this that is a flashback to the decades I spent UPC!
He isn't UPC
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #16  
Old 06-01-2014, 07:38 PM
n david n david is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1 View Post
Yup. It seems that every time UPCer's like yourself, Hoovie, and Ferd have just about convinced yourself the UPC has become more moderate, logical, and biblical you come face to face with something like this that is a flashback to the decades I spent UPC!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
He isn't UPC
Wups!
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  #17  
Old 06-01-2014, 07:39 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Marty Ballestero doesn't LIKE facial hair on m

I may be wrong but I thought he left with the other guys
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #18  
Old 06-01-2014, 08:31 PM
Carl Carl is offline
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Re: Marty Ballestero doesn't LIKE facial hair on m

Many years ago we heard one preacher say that God gave men whiskers to see if they are man enough to shave. I gave myself a few nicks as a teen trying to prove my manliness!
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  #19  
Old 06-01-2014, 08:44 PM
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Re: Marty Ballestero doesn't LIKE facial hair on m

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
I may be wrong but I thought he left with the other guys
That would explain things then!
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"

Titus2woman on AF
F


"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."

Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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  #20  
Old 06-01-2014, 08:44 PM
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Re: Marty Ballestero doesn't LIKE facial hair on m

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Originally Posted by Carl View Post
Many years ago we heard one preacher say that God gave men whiskers to see if they are man enough to shave. I gave myself a few nicks as a teen trying to prove my manliness!
Well I guess Aaron the High priest and David the King were wimps.
Jeremiah was not man enough to shave, only to stand up to a wicked king.
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