The REAL problem with Islam

[Aquila]

I don't doubt Mohammed's intentions. However, I do find it interesting that the religion was started after an encounter with an angel that identified himself as Gabriel. An angel of light.

[odooley6985]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I don't doubt Mohammed's intentions. However, I do find it interesting that the religion was started after an encounter with an angel that identified himself as Gabriel. An angel of light.

This. Again, this is something a Muslim will dismiss due to the bible being corrupted. Thats their answer to every bible verse that seems to disprove Islam.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by odooley6985

Again. These people are outside of what the Quran and Islam preaches. Read and study for yourself. The only problem I have with Islam is their lack of acknowledging who Jesus really was. There is 1.5-2 billion Muslims in the world. You are judging them based on a small minority.

Minority? Really? Go to Mecca and find out about that minority...


They will tell you they are very much in the unholy quran.

The Koran’s 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

[odooley6985]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Minority? Really? Go to Mecca and find out about that minority...


They will tell you they are very much in the unholy quran.

The Koran’s 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

What is Jihad? Look it up.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Don't confuse WII, with the facts, he generates his own.

http://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp

Do I? (4) of the top 20 countries rated by safety/crime index are Muslim countries. The US of course rates lower than Kazakhstan, Algeria, Egypt, Azerbaijan, Tunisia, Morroco, Indonesia, Turkey, Saudi, Brunei, Kuwait, UAE, and Qatar.

Then there are the murder rates.

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

Compared to the US at 5.22 which is higher than Somalia (3.25 and Kenya 3.65 and Yemen 3.97) the Muslim countries of Oman (.65), Saudi (.85), UAE (.92) enjoy rates at a fraction of the US rates. The really red countries (Honduras 60.87, Guatemala 45.17) could only reach these wonderful achievements with the help and values of the beliefs of the people who live there, summarized as follows:

In a 2007 nationwide survey, CID-Gallup, a Latin American market research and public opinion company, reported 47 percent of respondents identified themselves as Roman Catholic and 36 percent as evangelical Protestant. The principal religious groups are Catholic, Episcopal, Lutheran, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mennonite, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), and approximately 300 evangelical Protestant group

Looks like they need to replace some of these christians with Muslims or Buddhists to bring their numbers down at least to the levels of Burma (15.58) where the buddhists, as bad as they are, can't match the catholic / protestant numbers while they hunt down and execute Muslims.

Though interesting reads, the numbers posted about those eeeeevil Muslims do not appear to support historical experience that everywhere christianity goes blood follows and self-identified christian societies consistantly achieve the highest rates of crime and murder on the planet.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by odooley6985

What is Jihad? Look it up.

Introduction

Jihad

The literal meaning of Jihad is struggle or effort, and it means much more than holy war.

Muslims use the word Jihad to describe three different kinds of struggle:

A believer's internal struggle to live out the Muslim faith as well as possible
The struggle to build a good Muslim society
Holy war: the struggle to defend Islam, with force if necessary
Many modern writers claim that the main meaning of Jihad is the internal spiritual struggle, and this is accepted by many Muslims.

However there are so many references to Jihad as a military struggle in Islamic writings that it is incorrect to claim that the interpretation of Jihad as holy war is wrong.

Jihad and the Prophet

The internal Jihad is the one that Prophet Muhammad is said to have called the greater Jihad.

But the quotation in which the Prophet says this is regarded as coming from an unreliable source by some scholars. They regard the use of Jihad to mean holy war as the more important.



The internal Jihad

The phrase internal Jihad or greater Jihad refers to the efforts of a believer to live their Muslim faith as well as possible.

All religious people want to live their lives in the way that will please their God.

So Muslims make a great effort to live as Allah has instructed them; following the rules of the faith, being devoted to Allah, doing everything they can to help other people.

For most people, living God's way is quite a struggle. God sets high standards, and believers have to fight with their own selfish desires to live up to them, no matter how much they love God.

The five Pillars of Islam as Jihad

The five Pillars of Islam form an exercise of Jihad in this sense, since a Muslim gets closer to Allah by performing them.

Other ways in which a Muslim engages in the 'greater Jihad' could include:

Learning the Qur'an by heart, or engage in other religious study.
Overcoming things such as anger, greed, hatred, pride, or malice.
Giving up smoking.
Cleaning the floor of the mosque.
Taking part in Muslim community activities.
Working for social justice.
Forgiving someone who has hurt them.
The Greater Jihad controversy

The Prophet is said to have called the internal Jihad the "greater Jihad".

On his return from a battle, the Prophet said: "We are finished with the lesser jihad; now we are starting the greater jihad." He explained to his followers that fighting against an outer enemy is the lesser jihad and fighting against one's self is the greater jihad (holy war).

This quotation is regarded as unreliable by some scholars. They regard the use of jihad as meaning 'holy war' as the more important.

However the quotation has been very influential among some Muslims, particularly Sufis.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi.../jihad_1.shtml


I know what jihad means - thank you...

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Introduction

Jihad

The literal meaning of Jihad is struggle or effort, and it means much more than holy war.

Muslims use the word Jihad to describe three different kinds of struggle:

A believer's internal struggle to live out the Muslim faith as well as possible
The struggle to build a good Muslim society
Holy war: the struggle to defend Islam, with force if necessary
Many modern writers claim that the main meaning of Jihad is the internal spiritual struggle, and this is accepted by many Muslims.

However there are so many references to Jihad as a military struggle in Islamic writings that it is incorrect to claim that the interpretation of Jihad as holy war is wrong.

Jihad and the Prophet

The internal Jihad is the one that Prophet Muhammad is said to have called the greater Jihad.

But the quotation in which the Prophet says this is regarded as coming from an unreliable source by some scholars. They regard the use of Jihad to mean holy war as the more important.



The internal Jihad

The phrase internal Jihad or greater Jihad refers to the efforts of a believer to live their Muslim faith as well as possible.

All religious people want to live their lives in the way that will please their God.

So Muslims make a great effort to live as Allah has instructed them; following the rules of the faith, being devoted to Allah, doing everything they can to help other people.

For most people, living God's way is quite a struggle. God sets high standards, and believers have to fight with their own selfish desires to live up to them, no matter how much they love God.

The five Pillars of Islam as Jihad

The five Pillars of Islam form an exercise of Jihad in this sense, since a Muslim gets closer to Allah by performing them.

Other ways in which a Muslim engages in the 'greater Jihad' could include:

Learning the Qur'an by heart, or engage in other religious study.
Overcoming things such as anger, greed, hatred, pride, or malice.
Giving up smoking.
Cleaning the floor of the mosque.
Taking part in Muslim community activities.
Working for social justice.
Forgiving someone who has hurt them.
The Greater Jihad controversy

The Prophet is said to have called the internal Jihad the "greater Jihad".

On his return from a battle, the Prophet said: "We are finished with the lesser jihad; now we are starting the greater jihad." He explained to his followers that fighting against an outer enemy is the lesser jihad and fighting against one's self is the greater jihad (holy war).

This quotation is regarded as unreliable by some scholars. They regard the use of jihad as meaning 'holy war' as the more important.

However the quotation has been very influential among some Muslims, particularly Sufis.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi.../jihad_1.shtml


I know what jihad means - thank you...

You must not. "Holy War" is self-defense. UKreligiousbeliefs.com is not the source for what a Muslim is supposed to do any more than a pentecostal preacher is the source for what a christian is supposed to do.

SO: The Quran itself has much to say on unbelievers and what will/should happen to them and how they should be treated. If referencing Islam beliefs is UKnonsense.com the source that you should be picking apart or is the Quran that Muslims are supposed to follow the source that you should pick apart?

Do you believe that Muslim leaders, given power, are any different from christian leaders and are in a better position to resist the temptation to abuse that power? They are not.

The Quran on unbelievers for you to pick apart. Which one instructs Muslims to randomly kill each other or non-Muslims?

Say: O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (109:1-6)

So leave them alone until they encounter that Day of theirs, wherein they shall (perforce) swoon (with terror). (52:45)

And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity). And leave Me (alone to deal with) those in possession of the good things of life, who (yet) deny the Truth; and bear with them for a little while. (73:10-11)

Let there be no compulsion in religion. (2:256)

Those who reject Our signs, We shall gradually visit with punishment, in ways they perceive not. (7:182)

Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on! (18:29)

But those who reject (Allah) [Pickthal and others: "disbelieve"] - for them will be the Fire of Hell: No term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Penalty be lightened for them. Thus do We reward every ungrateful one! (35:36)

Seest thou not those that dispute concerning the Signs of Allah? How are they turned away (from Reality)? - Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which We sent our messengers: but soon shall they know, - When the yokes (shall be) round their necks, and the chains; they shall be dragged along - In the boiling fetid fluid: then in the Fire shall they be burned. (40:69-72)

But We will certainly give the Unbelievers a taste of a severe Penalty, and We will requite them for the worst of their deeds. Such is the requital of the enemies of Allah,- the Fire: therein will be for them the Eternal Home: a (fit) requital, for that they were wont to reject Our Signs. (41:27-28)

For those who reject [Pickthal: "disbelieve"] their Lord (and Cherisher) is the Penalty of Hell: and evil is (such) destination. (67:6)

Then leave Me alone with such as reject this Message: by degrees shall We punish them from directions they perceive not. (68:44)

Verily, We have warned you of a Penalty near, the Day when man will see (the deeds) which his hands have sent forth, and the Unbeliever will say, "Woe unto me! Would that I were (mere) dust!" (78:040)

What then is the matter with them, that they believe not? And when the Qur'an is read to them, they fall not prostrate, but on the contrary the Unbelievers reject (it). But Allah has full knowledge of what they secrete (in their breasts). So announce to them a Penalty Grievous, except to those who believe and work righteous deeds: for them is a Reward that will never fail. (84:20-25)

But if any turn away and reject Allah, [Pickthal: "But whoso is averse and disbelieveth"] - Allah will punish him with a mighty Punishment. (88: 23-24)

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (98:6)

But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein. (2:39)

Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith. (2:90)

(Yea), and such as reject Faith, - for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire, - an evil destination (indeed)! (2:126)

Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting, - on them is Allah's curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind. They will abide therein: Their penalty will not be lightened, nor will respite be their (lot). (2:161-162)

Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever). (2:257)

Those who reject Faith, - neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They are themselves but fuel for the Fire. (3:10)

Say to those who reject Faith: "Soon will ye be vanquished and gathered together to Hell, - an evil bed indeed (to lie on)! (3:12)

As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help. (3:56)

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). (3:85)

As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting [Pickthal: "those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief"], - never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers. (3:91)

Those who reject Faith, - neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They will be companions of the Fire, -dwelling therein (for ever). (3:116)

Fear the Fire, which is prepared for those who reject Faith [Pickthal: "disbelievers"]. (3:131)

Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (4:56)

Those who reject faith and deny our signs [Pickthal: "And they who disbelieve and deny Our revelations"] will be companions of Hell-fire. (5:10)

As to those who reject Faith, - if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them, theirs would be a grievous penalty. (5:36)

But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire. (5:86)

And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage, - that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith [Pickthal and others: "disbelieve"]. (9:3)

And for those who reject Faith and deny our Signs, there will be a humiliating Punishment. (22:57)

And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13)

And those who believe in Allah and His messengers - they are the Sincere (lovers of Truth), and the witnesses (who testify), in the eyes of their Lord: They shall have their Reward and their Light. But those who reject Allah and deny Our Signs, - they are the Companions of Hell-Fire. (57:19)

But those who reject Faith and treat Our Signs as falsehoods, they will be Companions of the Fire, to dwell therein for aye: and evil is that Goal. (64:10)

[Dordrecht]

I decided to check the Apostolic Forum.....
the same garbage is still allowed to be posted here.

See you later, I might check again in a couple of weeks.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by odooley6985

This. Again, this is something a Muslim will dismiss due to the bible being corrupted. Thats their answer to every bible verse that seems to disprove Islam.

Yet the Quran seems to validate the bible on one hand then contradict it. Muslims do the same by arguing it's corrupt then quoting it authoritativly

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

I decided to check the Apostolic Forum.....
the same garbage is still allowed to be posted here.

See you later, I might check again in a couple of weeks.

I wondered why you are obsessed with checking this particular area then I sudddenly remembered that Dutch love Muslims when they can exploit them for cheap or free labor then hate Muslims because of their beliefs THEN I remembered that by golly the Dutch have the same record with Jews.

What would the Netherlands be like if lazy and idle dutchmen would simply do their own work? LOL by now they could have been the "master race" LOL

CIA Factbook:

The Dutch exploited the colony, its natural resources, and the labor force in Indonesia. The Dutch were intereseted in gaining high capital profits from the labor and resources they extracted from Indonesia. To assure high profits, the Dutch established the Cultuurstelsel, or the Cultivation System, a system in which peasants and famers were forced to grow commercial crops for the Dutch and for the local governments. All heavy burdens and taxes were levied on the peasants, therefore they faced impoverished conditions and famine. The Dutch brought goods, such as coffee, to the island of Java, which became one of the largest exporters of the product. Sugar, coffee, and other goods, accounted for seventy percent of Indonesian exports, and almost all the profits were taken by the Dutch. All the fertile land in Indonesia because used as Dutch plantations. Peasants did not have enough land for subsitence farming and suffered through famines.

Dutch news story - just another day in the country with the best record for collaboration with the Nazis in Europe.

UTRECHT, Netherlands --

Fatima Yaakoub, 24 years old, born in Morocco, living in the Netherlands since she was 12, says she wants nothing more than to fit in. She works hard, cleaning offices in the early mornings, going to college during the day, taking English classes on weekends -- trying to get ahead, trying to do what is expected of a good citizen in her adopted homeland. But three years ago, she began wearing a head scarf, the sign of a devout Muslim woman, and got a rapid education on how much of an outsider she remains. Whenever she left her largely Muslim immigrant neighborhood, she discovered that the scarf, known in Arabic as a hijab, marked her as a subjugated Muslim woman, a foreigner, or buitenlander in Dutch. "They treat me like trash," Yaakoub said.
In the pharmacy where she worked, some customers saw the scarf and said, "I want to be treated by a Dutch girl." Her co-workers were no better, she recalled, laughing at her hijab, calling her names. She recalls hiding alone most days in the bathroom to cry. She switched to another pharmacy, and then to another. But the abuse continued. She gave up studying to be a pharmacist, and switched to a course in administration -- a career, she said,
that would require less contact with the public. Yaakoub's experience offers a glimpse into the conflict between Europe's historically Christian, increasingly secular societies and the large -- and often alienated -- Muslim populations.
Many of the Muslims were invited here three decades ago as cheap temporary workers who would one day go home. But they stayed on and became an integral part of European society, making Islam the continent's second-largest religion. Today it is common to see a
mosque near a medieval church; Arab restaurants and food stores abound on inner-city streets. Many people in the Netherlands believe that Muslims
like Fatima are forced to wear the head scarf by their families. In her case, she said, she was the one who decided. The scarf deflected male advances, but it also brought another, unwanted type of attention -- abuse, insults
or just quiet looks that communicated suspicion. Sometimes at the pharmacy, where she was serving the equivalent of an internship, the workers would sit
together during breaks. She recalled the conversations shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United States. "I'm a Muslim. I don't have a bomb under my head scarf," she told her colleagues. "I also don't endorse what those people did to the twin towers, because that is against Islam." But all they said was "Muslims this" and "Muslims that." NOTE: Sounds like AFF At home at night, she talked to her father.
"Try to hold on," he told his daughter. "And if they continue to treat you this way, you can take off your head scarf." But Fatima was stubborn. "I do this for my belief," she said. "I love Islam. Islam for me is everything. Allah for me is everything. I couldn't give it up."

Typical story for the Dutch. First the Jews, now the Muslims

A nice history lesson

Although the Dutch government had fled to Britain, they left behind an efficiently functioning civil service, which initially operated side by side with the German administration. However, Seyss-Inquart enjoyed absolute power. He acted, not upon instructions from Berlin, but on his own initiative. He soon made his intentions clear. As he later wrote, "The Jews for us are not Dutchmen. They are those enemies with whom we can come neither to an armistice nor to a peace." It did not take long for anti-Jewish legislation to be enacted. On 31 July 1940, "shechita" (the ritual slaughtering of animals) was abolished. A decree of 20 October 1940 required the registration of businesses operated by Jews, or in which Jews had financial interests. On 21 November 1940, all Jewish civil servants were effectively dismissed. Another decree issued on 10 January 1941 required all Jews to register with local branches of the census office. A Jew was defined as any person with two Jewish grandparents. The census revealed a total of 159,806 persons considered to be Jewish, of whom 19,561 were the offspring of mixed marriages.

Following the pattern established in Germany, other discriminatory measures quickly followed. Among many other restrictions, in the summer of 1941 Jews were barred from public places; a curfew was imposed from 8.00 p.m. to 6.00 a.m. and shopping was only permitted between 3.00 p.m. and 5.00 p.m. Jews were only allowed to use public transportation if they held a special permit, and then only if space was available. Jews were barred from public assemblies, museums, libraries, public markets as well as the stock exchange, and were excluded from joining the compulsory trade unions for journalists, actors and musicians. In August 1941, Jewish students were removed from public schools and universities.

In the same month, all Jewish assets, including bank deposits, cash, claims, securities and valuables were blocked. A maximum sum of 250 guilders a month was available to a Jewish owner for private use. Finally, with effect from 3 May 1942, every Jew aged 6 and over was ordered to wear a yellow star on their left breast, with the word "Jood" inscribed on it in black ink. These yellow stars had been manufactured in the Lodz Ghetto. Although there were no ghettos as such in Holland, the areas in which Jews were permitted to reside were restricted.

This is America and at least down here in Texas the views of unproductive, dope-smoking bigoted dutchmen aren't actually all that important to us. Come back in a couple of weeks as promised so that by golly you can get reminded of this again.

wii