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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #1  
Old 03-05-2007, 04:08 PM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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NT/Endtime Scriptures Or No?

Quite often the NT writers will quote OT scripture and demonstrate where this is a fulfillment or offer a greater explanation of these scriptures.

Some examples would be the writings of Joel when it is exclaimed "This is that"
The writings of Jeremiah are recalled concerning the prophecy of the new covenant that God was going to make.

I have heard the scriptures below quoted in various sermons in reference to the endtime.

Who shall be able to stand... they say.
He shall sit as a refiner & purifier of silver... is spoken speaking of some future time.

I see no reference by the apostles at any point in scripture that apply the scriptures below to a future/NT area happening.

Quote:
Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Does anyone else have any biblical backing for using these scriptures in that manner?
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:15 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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The messenger that shall prepare the way was John the Baptist.

Quote:
Matthew 3

1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Quote:
Matthew 3
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
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  #3  
Old 03-05-2007, 04:32 PM
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This still doesn't seem to make any references that tie the scriptures you have provided to the writings in Malachi.

As a matter of fact your own references send them to another book.

Please correct me if I am wrong... but the only word that I see that would tie these writings to the writings of Malachi is the term messenger.

Note below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkeley View Post
Matthew 3
1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
The prophecy that Matthew is speaking of was the prophecy of Isaiah.


Quote:
Matthew 3
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Also in the quote above there is a term fire used but to tie this to Malachi would be a speculation at best.

Let me demonstrate how positive the quotations are oftentimes when the apostles are speaking of an OT prophecy.

Below are the writings of Jeremiah
Quote:
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
This is a recollection of this prophecy in Hebrews.

Quote:
Hbr 10:15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Because of this clear recollection of an OT prophecy I can then, with good confidence, apply these scriptures in Jeremiah to the experience of NT salvation.

I have heard these scriptures in Malachi being applied to endtime events all my life and in my study today it appears that there is not clear calling of these scriptures in that frame of reference by the apostles.

Intersting...
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:45 PM
Eliseus
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1. The scripture has its primary fulfillment in the first advent of Christ, obviously.

2. The PRINCIPLE illustrated by the prophecy however can be applied to the second advent as well. The prophecy takes up for consideration the thought that when the Lord comes, many would not be able to "stand" or "abide". Was it not also said that our Lord was "set for the fall and rising of many in Israel"? So the thought then is that the Lord's presence (parousia?) separates wheat from chaff. Other new testament passages speak of the separating in the end of the age, as well as a fiery "purging" of the wicked out of the kingdom.

So then the prophecy expresses a PRINCIPLE that may be applied to the second advent, in my opinion, although the prophecy itself refers primarily to the first advent.

3. Have you considered that the new testament writers understood prophetic fulfillment differently than we do today?

Read this: http://breusswane.blogspot.com/2007/...es-from-g.html
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliseus View Post
1. The scripture has its primary fulfillment in the first advent of Christ, obviously.

2. The PRINCIPLE illustrated by the prophecy however can be applied to the second advent as well. The prophecy takes up for consideration the thought that when the Lord comes, many would not be able to "stand" or "abide". Was it not also said that our Lord was "set for the fall and rising of many in Israel"? So the thought then is that the Lord's presence (parousia?) separates wheat from chaff. Other new testament passages speak of the separating in the end of the age, as well as a fiery "purging" of the wicked out of the kingdom.

So then the prophecy expresses a PRINCIPLE that may be applied to the second advent, in my opinion, although the prophecy itself refers primarily to the first advent.

3. Have you considered that the new testament writers understood prophetic fulfillment differently than we do today?

Read this: http://breusswane.blogspot.com/2007/...es-from-g.html
I will take a look.

The reason I am asking is because I ran across what, I believe, may well be exactly what these scriptures are speaking of.

I will present my thoughts once I have finished my study.
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:56 PM
Eliseus
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Here is another article which contains a quote I found interesting in light of the topic of this thread...

Quote:
For it is often the case that grammatical-historical exegesis alone, without the added verification or information from the NT, is not able to provide sufficient warrant for confidently deducing the implications drawn by the NT. (10)
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Old 03-06-2007, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliseus View Post
Here is another article which contains a quote I found interesting in light of the topic of this thread...
2 very interesting articles.

Thanks for submitting them.
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Old 03-06-2007, 12:52 AM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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uh.. My bad! lol.. I wasn't payin attention..
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Old 03-06-2007, 12:57 AM
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Mat 11:10 For this is the one of whom it is written, "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You."

Luk 1:76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest, for you shall go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,

Luk 7:26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and much more than a prophet.
Luk 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You."


John the Baptist
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Old 03-06-2007, 01:00 AM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Mat 11:10 For this is the one of whom it is written, "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You."

Luk 1:76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest, for you shall go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,

Luk 7:26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and much more than a prophet.
Luk 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You."


John the Baptist
so I was right.. lol
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