Casting lots?

[votivesoul]

Still for today?

Why or why not?

If so, under what conditions should it be done? Not done?

How is it to he done? Odds and Evens on some dice? Votes?

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Still for today?

Why or why not?

If so, under what conditions should it be done? Not done?

How is it to he done? Odds and Evens on some dice? Votes?

Or...OR a really annointed session of paper, rock, scissors, lizard, Spock?


Best 2 out of 3?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Still for today?

Why or why not?

If so, under what conditions should it be done? Not done?

How is it to he done? Odds and Evens on some dice? Votes?

The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
(Pro 16:33)

A lot is a device used for making decisions or determinations without human interference. Such as the toss of a coin, roll of a die, drawing straws or pebbles from a bag, etc. The idea is to allow something other than humans to render a decision.

Pagans use the term "chance" or "luck" or "fortune" to describe the "random" results of a lot. (A lottery is a type of lot, hence the term.) However, Christians know there is no such thing as "random chance" or "luck" or "fortune". Fortune, in fact, is a word derived from Fortuna, the Roman goddess of "luck" or "chance". What they ascribed to Fortuna, and what atheists ascribe to some nebulous force called "random chance", the Bible ascribes to God. The outcome of a cast lot is decided by God, not "randomly".

Casting a lot is therefore a species of prayer. It is an appeal to God to render the decision. It is for the purposes of settling all disputes and removing any hint of bias or unfairness from the decision making process.

As a result, using lots for profane purposes seems to be a violation of the Third Commandment. To take the name of the Lord includes things such as prayer. Casting a lot is a type of prayer (an appeal to God to render a decision). Therefore, casting lots for profane purposes (such as to play a "game of chance", for example) may indeed be a profanation of the Lord's name, an abuse and mockery of prayer to God.

Shuffling cards, rolling dice, spinning "spinners" or pointers, flipping coins, drawing slips of marked paper or balls or pebbles or items from a container, are some examples of casting lots when used for any kind of decision making purposes. This is why some believers refuse to play "games of chance" that require the use of shuffled cards, dice, spinners, dominoes, or other such items.

Is casting the lot valid for today? Why would it not be? It was used by the apostles and early church to make the final decision in identifying Judas' replacement (Acts 1:23-26). Note that it was accompanied with prayer, as is proper when making an appeal to heaven. Some might argue that this was before they received the Holy Ghost. Yet, they were waiting in Jerusalem for the express purpose of receiving the Spirit, they had received a commandment from the Lord not to begin witnessing and preaching until they had been endued with supernatural power from on high as promised by both Jesus and John the Baptist and the prophets before them. So why didn't they wait until then, to make their decision? Obviously, they saw no discrepancy or conflict between casting a lot and receiving the Spirit. Anymore than praying for God to make something known would imply not relying on the Spirit. So I believe casting lots is just as valid for today as it was in both the new testament scriptures and the old testament scriptures.

To what should it be applied? When would be a recommended time to cast the lot? Obviously it would need to be something of importance. And it would need to be considered the "final word" on whatever is being determined. Obviously, it should not be a means of "divination" (such as "If I go to Dallas will I find my true love?") since divination is explicitly forbidden. Obviously, it should not be for frivolous purposes. But since it is an appeal to God to render a decision, the outcome stands as whatever it is (no "two out of three" or other attempts to render void the decision made).

What should be used? The easiest and simplest lot is a simple coin toss. That gives a simple yes or no response. A six sided die has six options. What shall those options be? Evens and odds for yes or no? The type of lot used would in large measure be determined by what is on hand and by what the issue to be determined is.

Voting, per se, is not actually a lot, as each vote and thus the end results are clearly the effect of human choice. A lot is specifically "random", ie, not subject to human decision making.

Note: the "Random number generator" in most applications is not actually random, but simply spits out a number according to the programmed algorithm. Hence, they are often called "pseudo-random number generators". There are other more complex number generators that use internal computer sounds, clock activities, and even atomic particle activities to generate "random" numbers or text strings. But I am not entirely certain those are truly random. If they are, using one would constitute a lot. If however they are not truly random, then they would NOT constitute a lot.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
(Pro 16:33)

A lot is a device used for making decisions or determinations without human interference. Such as the toss of a coin, roll of a die, drawing straws or pebbles from a bag, etc. The idea is to allow something other than humans to render a decision.

Pagans use the term "chance" or "luck" or "fortune" to describe the "random" results of a lot. (A lottery is a type of lot, hence the term.) However, Christians know there is no such thing as "random chance" or "luck" or "fortune". Fortune, in fact, is a word derived from Fortuna, the Roman goddess of "luck" or "chance". What they ascribed to Fortuna, and what atheists ascribe to some nebulous force called "random chance", the Bible ascribes to God. The outcome of a cast lot is decided by God, not "randomly".

Casting a lot is therefore a species of prayer. It is an appeal to God to render the decision. It is for the purposes of settling all disputes and removing any hint of bias or unfairness from the decision making process.

As a result, using lots for profane purposes seems to be a violation of the Third Commandment. To take the name of the Lord includes things such as prayer. Casting a lot is a type of prayer (an appeal to God to render a decision). Therefore, casting lots for profane purposes (such as to play a "game of chance", for example) may indeed be a profanation of the Lord's name, an abuse and mockery of prayer to God.

Shuffling cards, rolling dice, spinning "spinners" or pointers, flipping coins, drawing slips of marked paper or balls or pebbles or items from a container, are some examples of casting lots when used for any kind of decision making purposes. This is why some believers refuse to play "games of chance" that require the use of shuffled cards, dice, spinners, dominoes, or other such items.

Is casting the lot valid for today? Why would it not be? It was used by the apostles and early church to make the final decision in identifying Judas' replacement (Acts 1:23-26). Note that it was accompanied with prayer, as is proper when making an appeal to heaven. Some might argue that this was before they received the Holy Ghost. Yet, they were waiting in Jerusalem for the express purpose of receiving the Spirit, they had received a commandment from the Lord not to begin witnessing and preaching until they had been endued with supernatural power from on high as promised by both Jesus and John the Baptist and the prophets before them. So why didn't they wait until then, to make their decision? Obviously, they saw no discrepancy or conflict between casting a lot and receiving the Spirit. Anymore than praying for God to make something known would imply not relying on the Spirit. So I believe casting lots is just as valid for today as it was in both the new testament scriptures and the old testament scriptures.

To what should it be applied? When would be a recommended time to cast the lot? Obviously it would need to be something of importance. And it would need to be considered the "final word" on whatever is being determined. Obviously, it should not be a means of "divination" (such as "If I go to Dallas will I find my true love?") since divination is explicitly forbidden. Obviously, it should not be for frivolous purposes. But since it is an appeal to God to render a decision, the outcome stands as whatever it is (no "two out of three" or other attempts to render void the decision made).

What should be used? The easiest and simplest lot is a simple coin toss. That gives a simple yes or no response. A six sided die has six options. What shall those options be? Evens and odds for yes or no? The type of lot used would in large measure be determined by what is on hand and by what the issue to be determined is.

Voting, per se, is not actually a lot, as each vote and thus the end results are clearly the effect of human choice. A lot is specifically "random", ie, not subject to human decision making.

Note: the "Random number generator" in most applications is not actually random, but simply spits out a number according to the programmed algorithm. Hence, they are often called "pseudo-random number generators". There are other more complex number generators that use internal computer sounds, clock activities, and even atomic particle activities to generate "random" numbers or text strings. But I am not entirely certain those are truly random. If they are, using one would constitute a lot. If however they are not truly random, then they would NOT constitute a lot.

Soooo a D20 would = a yes? 😅

[jediwill83]

I can see the point of the idea and we also have scriptural precident with the Umim snd Thumim*typo?* and also others but Ive also heard people teach against fleecing God....wouldnt this be a variant of such a thing?


The danger I see is that we have a situation to where the method becomes a replacement for relationship...almost like when they worshipped the brazen serpents...would this evolve into some sort of rite where we have specialized instruments or artifacts devoted for this one purpose?


Does this have the potential to evolve into something different and is this a slippery slope to divination?


Saying this because I may or may not know my way around a tarot deck...and to me it'd kinda be in the same kinda category in a way....


That being said...a certain "Charismatic" group apparently goes to New Age festivals with "Christian Tarot" decks and do readings...all that kinda crosses a line for me I guess if we are going to maintain such a degree of separation from witchcraft.


Guess Im saying that in some instances I feel you need to pick a lane and dont cross the yellow lines.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

I can see the point of the idea and we also have scriptural precident with the Umim snd Thumim*typo?* and also others but Ive also heard people teach against fleecing God....wouldnt this be a variant of such a thing?


The danger I see is that we have a situation to where the method becomes a replacement for relationship...almost like when they worshipped the brazen serpents...would this evolve into some sort of rite where we have specialized instruments or artifacts devoted for this one purpose?


Does this have the potential to evolve into something different and is this a slippery slope to divination?


Saying this because I may or may not know my way around a tarot deck...and to me it'd kinda be in the same kinda category in a way....


That being said...a certain "Charismatic" group apparently goes to New Age festivals with "Christian Tarot" decks and do readings...all that kinda crosses a line for me I guess if we are going to maintain such a degree of separation from witchcraft.


Guess Im saying that in some instances I feel you need to pick a lane and dont cross the yellow lines.

Tarot cards were originally simply a card game. Later they were used for divination or "fortune telling". Some card readers use a regular deck of cards, by the way. Casting lots in the Biblical sense isn't on the same level as witchcraft or card reading. Casting a lot is LITERALLY flipping a coin to choose something. You've done that before, right? Did it lead to some weird cultic ritualistic coin flipping rite on your part? Probably not.

Moreover, lots of things can be abused. Example: baptism for the remission of sins being applied to infants or people without faith. The fact something can be abused doesn't mean that something should be avoided. It is the abuse that should be avoided.

But there is no positive command to cast lots. So if you never do, then no harm no foul.

The real problem today is the possibility that many people are casting lots in a profane manner for profane purposes (card games, games with dice or spinners etc) and that may very well be a violation of the Third Commandment.

[Esaias]

When I speak about cards being used as a lot, here is what I mean:

Take poker. The deck is shuffled to achieve a random distribution of the cards. You are given your cards, the hand you are dealt is entirely random. (The randomness decreases as each hand is played, obviously, unless the deck is reshuffled each hand.) So what you get is determined by God's Providential ordering of things. The winner is determined essentially by the providential distribution of cards to each player. In other words, it's a lot.

Same thing with board games that use a shuffled deck of cards to make various determinations or "events" in the game play. That constitutes a type of lot.

[Amanah]

Bro. Esaias thank you for always being knowledgeable and "apt to teach"

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Bro. Esaias thank you for always being knowledgeable and "apt to teach"

Well, I do try.

[votivesoul]

I agree with Esaias that there is no Biblical reason to think the casting of lots has ceased for New Covenant members. although I would like a better understanding of how it was done and what it would look like today.

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD (Proverbs 16:33, NLT).

Another name for casting lots is cleromancy, defined as

is a form of sortition, casting of lots, in which an outcome is determined by means that normally would be considered random, such as the rolling of dice, but are sometimes believed to reveal the will of God, or other universal forces and entities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerom...and%20entities.

At the above link, one can review the history of lot casting in the Bible. It is fairly extensive.