Logos Doctrine And The UPC

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

No names are given because there are none.

So someone is allowed to tell lies about "midwesterners" and get by with it? And one must simply swallow whatever they are told?

No names are given because you don't need names. You are some joker on the internet, who is in love with himself. If a poster knows "people" he shouldn't have to give up those people to a PUBLIC FORUM. Mike, it is called starting garbage on some person to appease you? Again, who are you again? Swallow what you are told? No one asked you to swallow anything, the poster mentioned that there are Oneness who believe in twoness (like yourself) that they are out there. You don't believe it? Who cares, the poster is still going to wake up in the morning and eat his cornflakes. Mike, you got issues.

[Michael The Disciple]

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14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Who said this? Was it not Jesus Christ? Is he not saying he is the beginning of the creation of God?

He is saying the same thing about himself that we saw in Hebrews 1:3, Ephesians 3:9, and Colossians 1:13-17.

Do we have the right to overthrow what Jesus and the Apostles taught? Many think they do. Jesus confirmed what Paul taught the Churches fully agreeing with it.

Now does this mean Jesus is not the ETERNAL FATHER?. No, it does not. What it means is that modern Oneness has not taken ALL THE COUNSEL OF GOD in a serious way.

Instead of accepting the words of Jesus and the Apostles and digging deeper to understand how that the concept of Jesus being Creator and at the same time created can be true they simply ignore or try to make Jesus words say something else.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Part 3


Part 3

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Who said this? Was it not Jesus Christ? Is he not saying he is the beginning of the creation of God?

He is saying the same thing about himself that we saw in Hebrews 1:3, Ephesians 3:9, and Colossians 1:13-17.

Do we have the right to overthrow what Jesus and the Apostles taught? Many think they do. Jesus confirmed what Paul taught the Churches fully agreeing with it.

Now does this mean Jesus is not the ETERNAL FATHER?. No, it does not. What it means is that modern Oneness has not taken ALL THE COUNSEL OF GOD in a serious way.

Instead of accepting the words of Jesus and the Apostles and digging deeper to understand how that the concept of Jesus being Creator and at the same time created can be true they simply ignore or try to make Jesus words say something else.

What creation Mike? The old creation? With the old Adam? Or the New Creation with the New Adam? Jesus tells the thief on the Cross I tell you today, you will be in garden with me? Was that the old garden or the new garden?

[Michael The Disciple]

No one asked you to swallow anything, the poster mentioned that there are Oneness who believe in twoness (like yourself) that they are out there.

So we are supposed to just accept whatever anyone says with no references?

Whatever someone says is a fact? You dont operate on that premise.

If there were those out there believing in 2 Gods or God persons they would have no interest in being part of any Oneness group.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So we are supposed to just accept whatever anyone says with no references?

Whatever someone says is a fact? You dont operate on that premise.

Whoa, what is this we? There is no we here, he made a statement from his own experience. Would I expect phone numbers? Names of preachers, where there churches are located? I ask those things, but guess what, I never get them. Want to know why? Because there is a bigger picture involved due to us all doing this stuff out in public. Do I expect to get an answer on who are their sources? Not any more. It is like this Mike, someone will wake up tomorrow from a phone call telling them that some bald headed bearded guy is blowing them up on an Apostolic forum. You don't care, about who they are, and if names were given you wouldn't know them. Because you have been locked in your trailer behind a computer for years. So, why tell you? Why would someone risk getting themselves in the trick bag, (or someone else in the trick bag) to appease you? Because you won't believe them? i know Apostolics who believe in two, I know you.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If there were those out there believing in 2 Gods or God persons they would have no interest in being part of any Oneness group.

That is because you base your world view upon assumption. The above is an assumption on what you believe Oneness groups to be. Mike, there are so many beliefs in Apostolic Pentecost it is mind blowing. There is a black church in Ithaca New York that are Oneness, call themselves Oneness Apostolics and believe that Jesus isn't God. They believe in two, Father God, and Jesus the son, who isn't God. Mike, get off the internet and get out, take a road trip and see the world.

Good God in Zion!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That is because you base your world view upon assumption. The above is an assumption on what you believe Oneness groups to be. Mike, there are so many beliefs in Apostolic Pentecost it is mind blowing. There is a black church in Ithaca New York that are Oneness, call themselves Oneness Apostolics and believe that Jesus isn't God. They believe in two, Father God, and Jesus the son, who isn't God. Mike, get off the internet and get out, take a road trip and see the world.

Good God in Zion!

Does this group belong to a Oneness org? The UPC? PAW? Church Of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Assemblies Of The Lord Jesus Christ?

If they believe in 2 Gods they would not attach themselves to one of these orgs. Neither would they be welcomed into them. That was my point

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

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14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Who said this? Was it not Jesus Christ? Is he not saying he is the beginning of the creation of God?

He is saying the same thing about himself that we saw in Hebrews 1:3, Ephesians 3:9, and Colossians 1:13-17.

Do we have the right to overthrow what Jesus and the Apostles taught? Many think they do. Jesus confirmed what Paul taught the Churches fully agreeing with it.

Now does this mean Jesus is not the ETERNAL FATHER?. No, it does not. What it means is that modern Oneness has not taken ALL THE COUNSEL OF GOD in a serious way.

Instead of accepting the words of Jesus and the Apostles and digging deeper to understand how that the concept of Jesus being Creator and at the same time created can be true they simply ignore or try to make Jesus words say something else.

Sorry, it is YOU who are not accepting the whole counsel of God. The Word is nowhere said to be created or begotten. You have imported that alien thought into your doctrine. You have taken statements referring to the MAN BORN OF MARY and misapplied them to the pre-incarnate Logos. In other words, you are confusing the humanity and Deity of Christ. You are saying THE SON was SON before the incarnation, which is not only completely unbiblical but is assuredly not Oneness.

You have demoted the Word from being what the apostle called it - GOD - to this bizarre divine skin suit God allegedly created before anything else. Hear the apostle: NOTHING was made except by the Word. If God made a space suit then it was made by the Word. Which means the space suit isn't the Word, but something made by the Word.

God did NOT "form an image of Himself" as the first thing He did. He already had an image, a likeness, a "form" if you will. The very fact He existed requires He have some kind of form, some defining characteristics, some IMAGE or LIKENESS. You can't MAKE an image of that which has no image. This is why idolatry is forbidden, to show that God is not something MADE OR FORMED. In other words, His essential nature and qualities and character IS His "image" or "likeness", it is WHO HE IS. Otherwise, He is literally no-thing, nothing, utterly undefinable and unknowable.

THAT IS THE GOD OF TRINITARIANISM, HINDUISM, PAGANISM. The idea of a God without definition, unknowable, undefinable, so He emanates, begets, generates, creates, forms, makes an image of Himself as a mediatorial agent. The Demiurge of Gnosticism, the Adam Kadmon of the kabbalah, the Emanated Son of Tertullian, the Eternally Begotten Son of later trinitarianism.

The truth though is that the Word WAS GOD and is now flesh. God is Who and What He is, THIS IS THE WORD, the image, likeness, expression of God, which became flesh. Not a heavenly flesh-suit that became human, but God, expressing Himself as a human being.

The Son being the visible image of the invisible God is speaking of THE MAN FROM GALILEE AS THE VISIBLE IMAGE OF GOD. Hebrews says the Son is the brightness of God's glory. God's glory is THE LOGOS, it is the goodness of God, His Divine qualities and attributes. This glory is shown to us AS THE SON OF GOD, born of the Virgin.

Hebrews also says the Son is the express image of God's substance or Being. The word used is xarakter, character, and means an ENGRAVING. The hypostasis of God was ENGRAVED as the Son. Engraved in what? HUMAN NATURE (not merely a physical body, but a complete human nature). The SON is the engraving, the LOGOS is that which is engraved in human nature.

The aeons created by the Son means God (THE LOGOS, OR WORD, WHICH MADE ALL THINGS) made the aeons because of, for, on behalf of, with a view towards, the SON the Man from Galilee who is God's self-representation to us.

Your error is due to not acknowledging that ALL things that were made were made by the Logos (because you have the Logos being made by something other than itself), as well your failure to understand what the term SON refers to. By throwing "Son" back onto the PRE INCARNATE Logos you are following in the footsteps of Tertullian and the original trinitarians. They first said God created the Logos, then said this Logos was SON because "begotten by God out of Himself." You have not yet made the jump to the Logos being a SECOND DIVINE PERSON, but that is a really teeny tiny hop from where you are currently at.

You are literally recreating within your own theology the process that led from Oneness to trinitarianism in the antenicene period.

Again, the Word is GOD, not a created thing. The Word is listed FIRST as "in the beginning", not second.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Does this group belong to a Oneness org? The UPC? PAW? Church Of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Assemblies Of The Lord Jesus Christ?

If they believe in 2 Gods they would not attach themselves to one of these orgs. Neither would they be welcomed into them. That was my point

Ok, so unless you are attached to an organization you believe they can’t be consider Oneness?

What organization are you in?

[Michael The Disciple]

Esaias

The aeons created by the Son means God (THE LOGOS, OR WORD, WHICH MADE ALL THINGS) made the aeons because of, for, on behalf of, with a view towards, the SON the Man from Galilee who is God's self-representation to us.

Thats funny, Paul never said that.

He said this:

Heb. 1:1-3

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

So Paul said what HE said not what YOU said he said

Matter of fact it is the same thing he told the Ephesians.

Ephesians 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Note it says the same thing as Hebrews 1:3.

Im afraid modern Oneness has boxed itself into a concept that must reinvent the words of a true Apostle.

No need to be afraid tho.

The Son Paul speaks of is simply the image of the invisible God himself. Paul makes it as plain as he can to the Colossians.

Col. 1:13-

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

This is the same as what John taught.

All things were made BY THE LOGOS.

Either the Logos is the same as the image of God that created all things or Paul and John disagree.

Which would you have it?