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  #31  
Old 05-21-2010, 10:30 AM
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Re: Poor Misunderstood Rand Paul....

So what exactly Rand Paul saying?


Is he trying to "covertly" appeal to "certain people" his Kentucky base that may harbor such opinions as he may be conveying?

Is he simply trying to justify the American citizen's right to be racist in private business?


Should Americans have the right to be racist?


Is Rand Paul a poor communicator and a misunderstood conservative?
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  #32  
Old 05-21-2010, 10:35 AM
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Re: Poor Misunderstood Rand Paul....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway View Post
I agree. I think any form of discrimination based of race should be illegal, and that goes for public and private, male or female owned, or black or white owned businesses.

A few years ago, my wife was hiring a new inside rep for her company and she decided to hire a bright black girl right out of college with a bachelors degree. What was a good gesture of diversifying the races of her employees turned into a nightmare. Every time my wife had to call her into her office because of a problem, the race card was played by the new employee. After several complaints by other employees and especially customers and clients, it was decided that she wasn't working out for the company. If she would have been any race but black, my wife would have easily fired her! Because she was black, the company had to document everything in a fire-proof manner because they assumed that she would try to sue them for racial reasons and possibly try make a media case out of it for attention. BTW, my wife was being advised by the personnel guy for her company WHO WAS BLACK!

It took two extra months to have everything they needed to defend the firing. As a result, my wife is very careful and digs a little bit deeper into the background of all job candidates. She just doesn't want the headache again.
I went through the same thing when I promoted one black girl over another. The one that went to EOC has complaints filed against her by many customers.

I had a new red thunderbird and she keyed it and then denied it. I was so furious. I walked out and caught her doing it and so she pointed it out as though she was not the one that did it.
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  #33  
Old 05-21-2010, 10:40 AM
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Re: Poor Misunderstood Rand Paul....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
So what exactly Rand Paul saying?


Is he trying to "covertly" appeal to "certain people" his Kentucky base that may harbor such opinions as he may be conveying?

Is he simply trying to justify the American citizen's right to be racist in private business?


Should Americans have the right to be racist?


Is Rand Paul a poor communicator and a misunderstood conservative?
He is saying this:

PAUL: Well, there's 10 -- there's 10 different -- there's 10 different titles, you know, to the Civil Rights Act, and nine out of 10 deal with public institutions. And I'm absolutely in favor of one deals with private institutions, and had I been around, I would have tried to modify that.

But you know, the other thing about legislation -- and this is why it's a little hard to say exactly where you are sometimes, is that when you support nine out of 10 things in a good piece of legislation, do you vote for it or against it? And I think, sometimes, those are difficult situations.

What I was asked by "The Courier-Journal" and I stick by it is that I do defend and believe that the government should not be involved with institutional racism or discrimination or segregation in schools, busing, all those things. But had I been there, there would have been some discussion over one of the titles of the civil rights.

And I think that's a valid point, and still a valid discussion, because the thing is, is if we want to harbor in on private businesses and their policies, then you have to have the discussion about: do you want to abridge the First Amendment as well. Do you want to say that because people say abhorrent things -- you know, we still have this. We're having all this debate over hate speech and this and that. Can you have a newspaper and say abhorrent things? Can you march in a parade and believe in abhorrent things, you know?

So, I think it's an important debate but should be intellectual one. It's really tough to have an intellectual debate in the political sense because what happens is it gets dumbed down. It will get dumb down to three words and they'll try to run on this entire issue, and it's being brought up as a political issue.

I think if you listen to me, I think you should understand that -- I think you do, I think you're an intelligent person. I like being on your show. But I think that what is the totality of what I'm saying -- am I a bad person? Do I believe in awful things? No.

I really think that discrimination and racism is a horrible thing. And I don't want any form of it in our government, in our public sphere.
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  #34  
Old 05-21-2010, 10:45 AM
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Re: Poor Misunderstood Rand Paul....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
So what exactly Rand Paul saying?


Is he trying to "covertly" appeal to "certain people" his Kentucky base that may harbor such opinions as he may be conveying?

Is he simply trying to justify the American citizen's right to be racist in private business?


Should Americans have the right to be racist?


Is Rand Paul a poor communicator and a misunderstood conservative?
I think he's saying that there should be less govt intrusion in private business. He didn't like the part of the Civil Rights law that suggested that a private business MUST hire or serve clients based on race.

The media has an agenda to make him look as bad a possible because a senate seat is at stake.

That being said, if after researching his opinions it turns out that he is indeed racist, I will distance my opinions from his.
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  #35  
Old 05-21-2010, 10:54 AM
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Re: Poor Misunderstood Rand Paul....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway View Post
I think he's saying that there should be less govt intrusion in private business. He didn't like the part of the Civil Rights law that suggested that a private business MUST hire or serve clients based on race.

The media has an agenda to make him look as bad a possible because a senate seat is at stake.

That being said, if after researching his opinions it turns out that he is indeed racist, I will distance my opinions from his.
Being a Libertarian, I think he is focusing on government intrusion. He is not a racist. His interview was very plain to me what he believes. While we are discussing "racism", it is naturally going to go to all other forms of discrimination - accepting gay marriage, open carry laws, etc., etc.

If the government controls all of this in the public sector, they will, eventually, get into the private sector.

Is it discrimination for me to think it's wrong for women to push their way into a golf club for men? Because I think men have a right to play the game together if that's what they want to do. I don't like women pushing their way into all men's games.

That's another example of what Rand was trying to bring up, but focusing on the "open carry". It just keeps getting bigger.
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  #36  
Old 05-21-2010, 10:56 AM
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Re: Poor Misunderstood Rand Paul....

Comments from NPR:

"...I'm in favor of everything with regards to ending institutional racism. (RE ...I think a lot of things could be handled locally. For example, I think that we should try to do everything we can to allow for people with disabilities and handicaps. ...with wheelchair ramps and things like that. I think if you have a two-story office, and you hire someone who's handicapped, it might be reasonable to let 'em have an office on the first floor rather than the government saying you have to have a 100,000 dollar elevator. ...when you get to solutions like that, the more local the better and the more common sense the decisions are rather than having a federal government make those decisions."

Asked if he would have voted for the Civil Rights act, he said, "I like the Civil Rights Act in the sense that it ended discrimination in all public domains, and I'm all in favor of that."

(But?)

"I don't like the idea of telling private business owners--I abhor racism, I think it's a bad business decision to ever exclude anybody from your restaurant, but at the same time, I do believe in private ownership. But I think there should be absolutely no discrimination in anything that gets any public funding and that's most of what the Civil Rights Act was about to my mind."

Interview with Rachel Maddow -

Rachel asked whether Rand Paul believed that private business owners should be able to decide whether they serve black people or gays or any other minority group:

"...with regard to racism, I don't believe in any racism, I don't think we should have any government racism, any institutional form of racism. You know one interesting historical tidbit, one of my favorite historical characters is William Lloyd Garrison. One of the interesting things about desegregation...--do you know when it happened in Boston?"

(Rachel doesn't know...)

"Well, it was in 1840, so I think it is sort of a stain on the history of America that it took us 120 years to desegregate the South, but...Garrison was a champion and abolitionist who wrote about freeing the slaves back in the [1800's]...they desegregated transportation in Boston in 1840, ...a lot of that was institutional racism, ...something...I absolutely oppose."

Rachel asks about legal remedies for discrimination:

"I'm not in favor of any discrimination of any form. I would never belong to any club that excluded anybody for race. We still do have private clubs in America that can discriminate based on race...what about freedom of speech? ...should we limit speech from people we find abhorrent? Should we limit racists from speaking? I don't want to be associated with those people, but I also don't want to limit their speech in any way, in the sense that we tolerate boorish and uncivilized behavior because that's one of the things freedom requires is that we allow people to be boorish and uncivilized...that doesn't mean we approve of it. ...the implication is somehow that I would approve of any racism or discrimination and I don't...."

"What I was asked by the Courier Journal, and I stick by it is that I do defend and believe that the government should not be involved [in institutional racism], ...but had I been there, there would have been some discussion over one of the [10] titles [in the Civil Rights Act]...if we want to harbor in on private businesses and their policies, then you have to have the discussion about, do you want to abridge the first amendment as well? Do you wanna say, that because people say abhorrent things..."

"...we still have this. We're having all this debate over hate speech. ...it should be an intellectual one [debate], and its really tough to have an intellectual debate in a political sense because what happens is it gets dumbed down...."


Basically he goes on to point out that the same idea that would prevent a business owner from serving certain people in his establishment would prevent the owner from preventing people from carrying weapons in his establishment.

I'm not sure I agree with him 100%, however it's his view on private ownership, and it isn't a necessarily racist view--it would potentially allow private business owners to act upon their own racist beliefs to some extent, among other things. He opposes the act because it infringes on the rights of business owners--not because he supports racism. Unfortunately, some people behave badly with their freedom--but that doesn't necessarily mean we should limit their freedom.

The whole conversation with Rachel was pretty hilarious. It was laughable the way she tried to turn the conversation into him supporting private business owners resorting to violence. I'm sure she was left feeling rather frustrated.
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  #37  
Old 05-21-2010, 10:59 AM
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Re: Poor Misunderstood Rand Paul....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
Being a Libertarian, I think he is focusing on government intrusion. He is not a racist. His interview was very plain to me what he believes. While we are discussing "racism", it is naturally going to go to all other forms of discrimination - accepting gay marriage, open carry laws, etc., etc.
Exactly.
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  #38  
Old 05-21-2010, 11:00 AM
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Re: Poor Misunderstood Rand Paul....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew View Post
Honestly, in some places yes, in others absolutely not.

I have admittedly myself not looked into this that much. I am just trying to understand what was actually said. Part of my frustration is that (as I've said here before) I have a whole circle of friends who blindly vote Dem because, well, that's what black people are supposed to do. I often have debates about whether there is quite a bit of racism at the root of some conservative movements. Things like this do not help at all. I will study it out whenever I have time though.
Unfortunately, conservative government allows people to act like idiots. That's what RP is saying--he's not endorsing idiocy, but he's saying that people have a right to be stupid.
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"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."

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  #39  
Old 05-21-2010, 11:05 AM
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Re: Poor Misunderstood Rand Paul....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified View Post

The whole conversation with Rachel was pretty hilarious. It was laughable the way she tried to turn the conversation into him supporting private business owners resorting to violence. I'm sure she was left feeling rather frustrated.[/COLOR]
Totally ridiculous, but she usually is. I can't stand her or Katie Couric or Chris Matthews or Keith Olberman or.......

Here's the full transcript of the interview between Rand and Rachel:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/rig...the_truth.html
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  #40  
Old 05-21-2010, 11:31 AM
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Re: Poor Misunderstood Rand Paul....

I agree with RP's premise, but I also agree that when it comes to racism, the application becomes sticky.

You could have a scenario where a restaurant owner is free to refuse service to black people--but who will enforce the restaurants rule? Is the owner now free to use force to enforce the rule? Must he call in local law enforcement to enforce the rule? The latter would become even further muddied because now you're talking about the government being involved in racism. Will the restaurant owner be subject to arrest or prosecution if he attempts to enforce his rules? Should he be?

I can see a LOT of potential problems with this stance, even though the basic principle is understandable.

Even if you state that a restaurant owner can post rules (freedom of speech), but isn't allowed to enforce them, I can see how it could create an environment for violent acts to occur, both against black people AND against the restaurant owner.

I like both RP's, but I'm going to have to think about this one. There ARE times when our freedoms do have to be limited for the good of the community. (Such as someone's right to go naked in their front yard--even though it's their property, other people can see them unless they have up a privacy fence. Therefore, they could be arrested for public indecency.)
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"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
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