Libertarian for Universal Healthcare???

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

by both of your theories listed the tax payer foots the bill. I would rather help some than all.

As long as the uninsured can seek treatment at ERs and not pay that bill, passing the loss down to us in higher healthcare costs, we're going to always pay for everyone. Only, right now, we pay all the processing fees involved on top of what the healthcare provider can't write off.

As I said, in what "capitalist" system can one seek services, and services be required to be rendered, even if the customer (the injured uninsured person), can't pay???

Healthcare is run as a social service. However, it isn't funded as such. So, the costs will continue to rise as fewer and fewer people can actually afford insurance.

The only way to stabilize the system is to either deny services to the uninsured who do not have cash, or to cause the vast majority of Americans to pay into the system that services everyone to sustain it.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Aquila

There are Canadians who are critical of their system. Every system has it's problems. Even fewer Canadians, based on what I've discussed with family who live in Ontario, would favor having a system like ours.

So, based solely on your anecdotal evidence (i.e. your family), the majority of Canadians prefer their health care system; while based on my anecdotal evidence, those Canadians are just "critical" of their system. Did you even watch the video? A woman explained how her mother needed an amputation. They waited an entire year to do the operation, and ended up having to amputate both legs. Not only that, they amputated the good leg first!

You think you can appeal to our capitalism on this, but we understand fully the costs of socialized health care, and it's not always quantified in dollars and cents.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jito463

So, based solely on your anecdotal evidence (i.e. your family), the majority of Canadians prefer their health care system; while based on my anecdotal evidence, those Canadians are just "critical" of their system. Did you even watch the video? A woman explained how her mother needed an amputation. They waited an entire year to do the operation, and ended up having to amputate both legs. Not only that, they amputated the good leg first!

You think you can appeal to our capitalism on this, but we understand fully the costs of socialized health care, and it's not always quantified in dollars and cents.

I don't believe any system is perfect.

However, Canada doesn't have 50 million uninsured, and an estimated 45,000 dying of what might have been treatable conditions every year simply because they had no insurance or means to pay for those procedures or treatments.

I'm sure horror stories exist in Canada. We could pick from many, many, many of horror stories in the United States, even among those who have insurance. For example, Mark Lieberman. He had heart surgery at a local Hospital outside of Dayton, Ohio. Things seemed to be going well after the surgery but then he began to feel very weak. He was taken back to the hospital where he had his surgery and he waited for an available room in cardiac for nearly 4 hours. Nurses took his vitals several times. He grew weaker by the hour in the waiting room. Eventually a nurse found that his blood pressure was indicating a very serious problem. They rushed him to ICU where he lost consciousness and died. The problem? He was overdosed by the doctor on blood thinner. Combine that with the unnecessary wait for a room and the mismanagement of how his care was handled.

Should Mark's story be A-typical for American healthcare? Of course not. So, my issue is, as bad as what this Canadian family experienced, it's only one horror story. It isn't any more reflective of their entire system as Mark's is our entire system. But what is telling is the number of uninsured in the United States and the number of people who do suffer or die from conditions simply because they can't afford the specialists or treatments due to lack of insurance. When the numbers are compared... is it any wonder why the entire Western World is wondering when America will catch up for the sake of our citizens?

I find the following meme a bit humorous on this topic. I'm sure you'll get the gist...

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jito463

So, based solely on your anecdotal evidence (i.e. your family), the majority of Canadians prefer their health care system; while based on my anecdotal evidence, those Canadians are just "critical" of their system. Did you even watch the video? A woman explained how her mother needed an amputation. They waited an entire year to do the operation, and ended up having to amputate both legs. Not only that, they amputated the good leg first!

You think you can appeal to our capitalism on this, but we understand fully the costs of socialized health care, and it's not always quantified in dollars and cents.

My only question regarding the free market approach is...

How does the manner in which healthcare is provided in this country allow for it to truly be considered a free market service?

As long as anyone can go to the ER for immediate care for sickness and injuries, and not pay due to lack of insurance, they are creating market forces that undermine the ability to make profit unless that loss is passed down to paying consumers. Meaning the cost of healthcare and health insurance will continue to rise with no end in sight. If healthcare is going to be provided as a social service, it should be funded as a social service. Or, it will become increasingly unaffordable.

The only ways to stabilize such forces are... to mandate the purchase of private insurance as with Obamacare and like what we see in Switzerland... or by having everyone pay into a universal Medicare system for all Americans. Or the third option, which is to deny treatment for those who aren't insured or can't pay up front. But I can't see that happening in the United States.

It's basic economics.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm sure horror stories exist in Canada. We could pick from many, many, many of horror stories in the United States, even among those who have insurance.

It's quite apparent you never watched the video. The story I mentioned was just the most egregious example, but far from the only one. The whole point of the story was that it was an undercover expose on the topic. They were even told by one nurse that they should go to a private clinic and PAY FOR HEALTH SERVICES. Something as simple as a blood test (to check his cholesterol), and he was told to pay a private clinic $900 to have it done, because he couldn't have it done without a personal doctor (which requires a 2-year minimum waiting list to get one in Canada). Funny, I thought everything was covered for them in their "socialist utopia"?

Originally Posted by Aquila

I find the following meme a bit humorous on this topic. I'm sure you'll get the gist...

I'm not surprised. Once the public at large gets a taste of something "free", it takes a massive upset to get them off of it. And that's largely why I - and others - refuse to cave in on gooberment health care. I'm still not convinced by anything you've posted.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jito463

It's quite apparent you never watched the video. The story I mentioned was just the most egregious example, but far from the only one. The whole point of the story was that it was an undercover expose on the topic. They were even told by one nurse that they should go to a private clinic and PAY FOR HEALTH SERVICES. Something as simple as a blood test (to check his cholesterol), and he was told to pay a private clinic $900 to have it done, because he couldn't have it done without a personal doctor (which requires a 2-year minimum waiting list to get one in Canada). Funny, I thought everything was covered for them in their "socialist utopia"?

LOL

Would you mind if I email this to my aunt, Karen? Can often decipher the propaganda. Sometimes, the videos and things I've been sent aren't even real. It's sad, but true.

No, everything isn't covered in Canada. You have basic comprehensive coverage. Any coverage for elective services is covered by supplemental private insurance.

I'm not surprised. Once the public at large gets a taste of something "free", it takes a massive upset to get them off of it. And that's largely why I - and others - refuse to cave in on gooberment health care. I'm still not convinced by anything you've posted.

The public doesn't get anything for free. Everyone knows what they are paying for via taxation.

Question, do you know exactly what your taxes go to pay for? Does all the money you pay in taxes truly serve you and your family? For most Americans, the question is "no". Not for Canadians, or those in Scandinavia, Denmark, and many, many other countries.

If you have any money left after giving it all away without expecting anything in return... let me know. I could use a little extra cash. lol

[Aquila]

Jihto, have you ever been outside of the United States? I've been to Canada, Netherlands, and Belgium.

Bro... some of these cities look like science fiction futuristic cities. They look like they are from 50 to 100 years in the future.

Now, yes... they do have their slums. But their big cities are amazing. Even Toronto is dazzling compared to most Midwest American cities.

I'm not intending to "beat up" on America. I love her. I just think she can do far better. She's falling behind as everyone holds up a big foam finger, chanting, "We're nummer 1!!! We're nummer 1!!!" lol

What are we #1 in, actually?