Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

[TakingDominion]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Thats the whole issue IMO.

Modern Oneness teacher Jason Dulle wrote:

http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/trinoneness.htm
tations?

This is Bible truth!

Nonetheless in a discussion I had with Jason on the forum he would not fully commit to this position tho he had written these very words himself. Perhaps he feared consequences from UPCI circles.

I certainly agree there were times in the OT where God appeared visibly; even as early as the garden. My question would be, where is the connection to Logos made in scripture to these old testament manifes

[Pressing-On]

How would Genesis 3:8 be explained - God walking in the "cool" of the day.

Here is the Interlinear - they "heard" God walking in the "breeze". It doesn't say that they saw Him.

https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/3-8.htm

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

I certainly agree there were times in the OT where God appeared visibly; even as early as the garden. My question would be, where is the connection to Logos made in scripture to these old testament manifes

John says the Logos was "in the beginning." Thus, the Logos or Word was present back in Genesis 1:1. If we understand the Logos to be the personal subsistence of God, then it becomes clear that any OT manifestation of God's Presence is the Logos. The concept of The Angel (Messenger) of Jehovah as theophany (appearing of God) is an OT equivalent to the concept of the Logos or Word (Expression) of God in the New.

What in the OT is The Angel of Jehovah, the Word (Heb. "dabar", Aramaic "memra"), the Spirit of Jehovah that came upon and moved the prophets and which is " the breath of Jehovah", the Wisdom by which God made all things, is in the New Testament applied to Jesus Christ Who is the incarnation or enfleshment of the Logos.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

How would Genesis 3:8 be explained - God walking in the "cool" of the day.

Here is the Interlinear - they "heard" God walking in the "breeze". It doesn't say that they saw Him.

https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/3-8.htm

I think I wrote about this not too long ago in another thread. I'll have to search for it. Short version is they heard the voice (sound) of Jehovah walking in the cool of the day in the Garden = the Logos was present. Heard/sound/voice = Word = manifestation of breath/Spirit in a perceptible and intelligent manner.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I think I wrote about this not too long ago in another thread. I'll have to search for it. Short version is they heard the voice (sound) of Jehovah walking in the cool of the day in the Garden = the Logos was present. Heard/sound/voice = Word = manifestation of breath/Spirit in a perceptible and intelligent manner.

http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/trinoneness.htm

Quote:
This form was at least visible to the heavenly host, for they presented themselves before God in some manner (I Kings 22:19; Job 1:6). Since God is omnipresent, there could not be any specific location at which to gather, unless, that is, God appeared in some type of visible, albeit spirit form. So the logos was the visible expression of God’s invisible essence. "The Word was not merely an impersonal thought existing in the mind of God but was, in reality, the Eternal Spirit Himself clothed upon by a visible and personal form..."28

I believe it is all speculation as to how we think God presented Himself as visible to the "heavenly host".

I'll have to think about it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I think I wrote about this not too long ago in another thread. I'll have to search for it.

I found the post I was looking for. Here's the relevant part:

As for what is the Word in John ch 1, the Word is the word of God. The Word created all things, that is to say, all things were made by God who spoke them into existence. God made all things by His Word, that is, God made all things by speaking, and thus they came to be.

The Word is thus God actively doing something, creating, making, etc. All things were made by the "breath of His mouth", that is to say, "by the spirit of His mouth". So the Word and the spirit of God are identified with one another. And thus we read about the Holy Spirit moving upon the prophets being described as "the Word of the Lord came to" the prophets.

So then the Word is the Spirit of God interacting and communicating. Thus, the Scriptures are called "the Word of God" because they are the written record of the Word that came to the prophets. The Word, then, is the Spirit of God revealing Himself to mankind.

The Word is therefore God revealing himself, or making Himself known. It is God's Self-Revelation.

When the Word was made flesh, that means God's Self-Revelation was made flesh (became human). Thus, God was manifested in the flesh, and thus Christ is said to be God (because He is God revealing Himself in human nature).

Since the Word is the Self-Revelation or "appearing" of God to man, it is naturally connected to the Angel of the LORD. There are many angels of God, but there is also "THE Angel of Jehovah" which is also said to be God Himself. This Angel of the Lord is God's Self-Revelation, it is God's means of appearing to man in a visible form of some kind (often as a man, actually).

So the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is in fact an appearing of the Word or logos of God, that is, God's active Spirit revealing Himself to His creatures.

In Genesis it speaks of God walking in the garden, and Adam and Eve hearing the voice of the Lord God walking in the Garden". Now, the word "voice" can mean simply a sound or noise, but obviously God's presence is indicated by a sound, or voice, and thus is properly called "the logos" or WORD of God. God walked in the Garden with Adam, and this was the logos, as the Angel of Jehovah (that is to say, God's manifest presence).

And, this is also why when the Holy Ghost comes into a person they speak with other tongues. Those who are born of the Spirit are like the wind, which cannot be seen, but it can be heard. Receiving the Spirit is nothing less than Christ himself taking up residence in a person. So the Word comes into the person's heart, that is to say Christ comes in, and this is "by His Spirit". Also, we are born of the Word, yet we are born of the Spirit. The reason is because Word and Spirit are different terms referring to essentially the same thing - God revealing Himself and interacting with His creation.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I found the post I was looking for. Here's the relevant part:

As for what is the Word in John ch 1, the Word is the word of God. The Word created all things, that is to say, all things were made by God who spoke them into existence. God made all things by His Word, that is, God made all things by speaking, and thus they came to be.

The Word is thus God actively doing something, creating, making, etc. All things were made by the "breath of His mouth", that is to say, "by the spirit of His mouth". So the Word and the spirit of God are identified with one another. And thus we read about the Holy Spirit moving upon the prophets being described as "the Word of the Lord came to" the prophets.

So then the Word is the Spirit of God interacting and communicating. Thus, the Scriptures are called "the Word of God" because they are the written record of the Word that came to the prophets. The Word, then, is the Spirit of God revealing Himself to mankind.

The Word is therefore God revealing himself, or making Himself known. It is God's Self-Revelation.

When the Word was made flesh, that means God's Self-Revelation was made flesh (became human). Thus, God was manifested in the flesh, and thus Christ is said to be God (because He is God revealing Himself in human nature).

Since the Word is the Self-Revelation or "appearing" of God to man, it is naturally connected to the Angel of the LORD. There are many angels of God, but there is also "THE Angel of Jehovah" which is also said to be God Himself. This Angel of the Lord is God's Self-Revelation, it is God's means of appearing to man in a visible form of some kind (often as a man, actually).

So the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is in fact an appearing of the Word or logos of God, that is, God's active Spirit revealing Himself to His creatures.

In Genesis it speaks of God walking in the garden, and Adam and Eve hearing the voice of the Lord God walking in the Garden". Now, the word "voice" can mean simply a sound or noise, but obviously God's presence is indicated by a sound, or voice, and thus is properly called "the logos" or WORD of God. God walked in the Garden with Adam, and this was the logos, as the Angel of Jehovah (that is to say, God's manifest presence).

And, this is also why when the Holy Ghost comes into a person they speak with other tongues. Those who are born of the Spirit are like the wind, which cannot be seen, but it can be heard. Receiving the Spirit is nothing less than Christ himself taking up residence in a person. So the Word comes into the person's heart, that is to say Christ comes in, and this is "by His Spirit". Also, we are born of the Word, yet we are born of the Spirit. The reason is because Word and Spirit are different terms referring to essentially the same thing - God revealing Himself and interacting with His creation.

Forgive me, and maybe I am just dense, but all of the bold seems rather contradictory. Either you see Him or you do not. His "voice", your "voice" and my "voice" are not visible.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Forgive me, and maybe I am just dense, but all of the bold seems rather contradictory. Either you see Him or you do not. His "voice", your "voice" and my "voice" are not visible.

By "appearing" I meant "perceiving", being perceived in some sense. I should have been more clear.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

By "appearing" I meant "perceiving", being perceived in some sense. I should have been more clear.

Thank you. That makes more sense.

[Michael The Disciple]

This does not seem like speculation.

1 Kings 22:19-22

19And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

The Lord is on the throne. He is having a conversation with angels. We are made to think this is not unusual.

The truth we are getting at is that if no one has seen God at any time per 1 John 4:12 what were the angels talking to?

The answer is the LOGOS "expression" of his person. The angels themselves did not and could not see God as omnipresent. They saw his visible image. From IT the invisible Spirit communicated with them.