Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #281  
Old 02-10-2021, 10:18 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,014
Re: Sid Roth, Branham, Cain, and Reed

Esaias,
His recommendation to use a dictionary is for the obvious reasons that new Christians, who speak Modern English, are not familiar with the Jacobian English. I don't see how that argument is opposed to studying the Word of God. If any, the Greek text is the inspired, not the translation, therefore, you should use more an ancient greek dictionary than an English one, even if you knew the meaning of all the Jacobian English words used in the KJV.

Amanah,
This is a good collection of evidences regarding Isaiah 7:14, and also the selected answer has a great analysis: https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...er-to-a-virgin

Last edited by coksiw; 02-10-2021 at 10:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #282  
Old 02-10-2021, 10:57 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,408
Re: Sid Roth, Branham, Cain, and Reed

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Amanah,
This is a good collection of evidences regarding Isaiah 7:14, and also the selected answer has a great analysis: https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...er-to-a-virgin
And I have always liked this article, even from an rcc:

Fr. William Most- The Problem of Is. 7:14
https://sites.google.com/site/aquina...lem-of-is-7-14

Daniel Gruber is also helpful:

God, the Rabbis and the Virgin Birth
https://www.amazon.com/Rabbis-Virgin...dp/1514209756/
Reply With Quote
  #283  
Old 02-10-2021, 11:09 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,408
Re: Sid Roth, Branham, Cain, and Reed

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Esaias,
His recommendation to use a dictionary is for the obvious reasons that new Christians, who speak Modern English, are not familiar with the Jacobian English. I don't see how that argument is opposed to studying the Word of God. If any, the Greek text is the inspired, not the translation, therefore, you should use more an ancient greek dictionary than an English one, even if you knew the meaning of all the Jacobian English words used in the KJV.
Typical nonsense. The AV is so hard for me, so I am going to use an ancient Greek dictionary. Upside-down.
Reply With Quote
  #284  
Old 02-10-2021, 11:13 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,014
Re: Sid Roth, Branham, Cain, and Reed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Typical nonsense. The AV is so hard for me, so I am going to use an ancient Greek dictionary. Upside-down.
No, what I meant is that Bernard says that the english in AV is hard for new believers, so they need an English Dictionary. The part about the Greek dictionary was for Esaias' argument that using a Dictionary is good for the Study of the Bible anyways, which I answer, "well, what it is best for Word Studies regarding Dictionary is a Greek Dictionary, if that's the case".
Reply With Quote
  #285  
Old 02-10-2021, 12:17 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Sid Roth, Branham, Cain, and Reed

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Esaias,
His recommendation to use a dictionary is for the obvious reasons that new Christians, who speak Modern English, are not familiar with the Jacobian English. I don't see how that argument is opposed to studying the Word of God. If any, the Greek text is the inspired, not the translation, therefore, you should use more an ancient greek dictionary than an English one, even if you knew the meaning of all the Jacobian English words used in the KJV.
"The classic literal translation in English is the King James Version (1611), but because of significant changes in word meaning and use over the centuries, readers of the KJV need the assistance of modern dictionaries, word studies, and translations."

Nothing in that statement about "new Christians" who can't read or speak their own native English language.

My kids learned to read using a KJV. If a 6-7 year old can work with the KJV a 20 something new convert can too. I have never actually met a native born English speaker who CAN'T get a KJV and become familiar with it nearly instantly. Is there a learning process? Certainly. As with anything. When in school and we were exposed to Shakespeare we read his works AS WRITTEN except for modern punctuation and spelling. The Chinglish used in the instruction manual for a set of 10 dollar walmart solar yard lights is harder to grasp than a KJV.

Do you mean to tell me a new Christian who at least has an 8th grade reading level cannot read and understand the following?

Mark 1:1-8 KJV
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; [2] As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. [3] The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [4] John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. [5] And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. [6] And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; [7] And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. [8] I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #286  
Old 02-10-2021, 12:22 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Sid Roth, Branham, Cain, and Reed

My mom does a weekly Bible study session with a friend of hers. This friend is 70 plus years old. Never read the Bible. Said she couldn't understand all that thee and thou old speech. Well, my mom convinced her to TRY it.

By the end of the FIRST HOUR she said she was amazed that she CAN read that old King James Bible AND grasp what was being said.

The only people who can't handle a King James Bible are folks who just don't got any want-to.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #287  
Old 02-10-2021, 12:45 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Sid Roth, Branham, Cain, and Reed

Re the NKJV. I distinctly remember having 2 NKJVs in my life. The first was an edition I got back in like 1992 or 91. The second was one I bought about 10 years later or so.

I remember reading the introduction thing of the second one and I distinctly recall reading they said the NT is based on the "Majority Text" whereas the original one stated "Textus Receptus". Possibly a Mandela Effect but I definitely remember it.

Looking over the intardnets I see a pattern: Both TR supporters and detractors and MJ supporters and detractors and WH-NA supporters and detractors alike often use the term "Majority Text" and "Textus Receptus" interchangeably. Which is yet another example of why I usually don't get involved in which-text debates: seems way too many people on all sides aren't being too perspicacious with the subject matter. Not everyone, but enough that to me makes it a chore to discuss with most I've encountered who want to talk about it.

So... is there such a thing as "THE Majority Text"? An actual published TEXT? I believe there are TWO (referenced earlier), and today I found a third one in the works.

Is the TR the "Majority Text"? No, not to my knowledge. It is A "majority text", meaning it reflects the general majority of manuscripts in MOST cases (not all). But it is not the 20th century published "Majority Text".

Both are "Byzantine manuscript based", ie both reflect the same general family of manuscripts. Just as WH and NA reflect the same basic family of texts. But the WH and the NA are NOT "the same text". Nor is the TR and the MJ.

Re Orthodox English Bibles: I see conflicting information from Orthodox publishers, authors, and others. They contradict themselves.

One thing is sure, the official church text of the Greek Orthodox Church is, as far as I know, a Byzantine text but it is NEITHER the MJ nor the TR. Likely close enough to the MJ to be practically identical - kind of like Elzevir and Stephanus and the actual KJV readings are close enough for church work but not exactly identical.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf


Last edited by Esaias; 02-10-2021 at 12:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #288  
Old 02-10-2021, 01:15 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,014
Re: Sid Roth, Branham, Cain, and Reed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
My mom does a weekly Bible study session with a friend of hers. This friend is 70 plus years old. Never read the Bible. Said she couldn't understand all that thee and thou old speech. Well, my mom convinced her to TRY it.

By the end of the FIRST HOUR she said she was amazed that she CAN read that old King James Bible AND grasp what was being said.

The only people who can't handle a King James Bible are folks who just don't got any want-to.
The thou's and such is not a problem for me. I'm not a native English speaker. The problem I see is in the old meaning of words misleading comprehension, or words that are not longer in used. I find the thou and such useful to distinguish between the second person singular and plural. I believe the meaning of words issue is the main issue Bernard was trying to address. In his book, God's Infallible Word, he surveys multiple examples of how the fact that not knowing before hand the old meaning of words can lead to challenges, or worse, misunderstanding.
Reply With Quote
  #289  
Old 02-10-2021, 03:24 PM
1 God 1 God is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 793
Re: Sid Roth, Branham, Cain, and Reed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Up to about 1984 (paperback edition was published) he seemed to be fairly solid Authorised Version. He slipped into accepting the NKJV mode at some point.

However, the seminarian textcrit dupes really became big in the UPC, supporting the Westcott-Hort corruption versions. And I don't think they would care too much about Segraves either way.

And I wrote this on a Daniel Segraves thread:
I knew him personally and he was greatly admired by all of us under his ministry. We were all upset when he returned with the NKJV, which way back then, seemed like we had our Bibles stripped from us and replaced. He was the first that I ever heard of that caused them all to go that way. He was the first domino to fall.
Reply With Quote
  #290  
Old 02-11-2021, 05:15 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,408
Re: Sid Roth, Branham, Cain, and Reed

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 God View Post
I knew him personally and he was greatly admired by all of us under his ministry. We were all upset when he returned with the NKJV, which way back then, seemed like we had our Bibles stripped from us and replaced. He was the first that I ever heard of that caused them all to go that way. He was the first domino to fall.
I understand.

A number of the believers who had been on Long Island had been involved at CLC around those times, and one named Ed helped me in the beginnings of my moving from the corruption texts to the AV. He handed me the excellent Segraves book (which actually is still quite fine, in how it emphasizes the textual apostasy of the Westcott-Hort recension.)

And I was just referring to the wider UPC-Oneness environment, where you had a number of really terrible writings (an example, fighting the traditional text of Matthew 28:19) by folks who had been duped by the liberal scholarship. Including David Bernard, although he has not fought that particular verse.

And I can understand what a gut-blow it was when a leading defender of the pure and perfect Bible lost his way.

Overall, the NKJV is designed to be a bridge version, to drive people away from the AV, and perhaps later to the corruption texts. For me, it was actually one of the bridge versions in the good direction, away from the Westcott-Hort corruption texts and towards the pure and perfect word of God, the AV.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-11-2021 at 05:17 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Chris Reed mfblume Fellowship Hall 221 11-06-2023 10:56 AM
Special Prayer for Ralph Reed Godzchild Fellowship Hall 5 03-07-2013 06:20 PM
Daily game Jan 31 : SW: The Mary Reed Chro... dailygame Daily Game 0 01-31-2011 04:09 AM
Since this is a Branham thread ---- Dr. Vaughn Branhamism 5 10-04-2009 09:33 PM
Retirement ? on 403b roth Truthseeker Fellowship Hall 3 08-08-2009 11:11 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.