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  #101  
Old 11-07-2019, 06:34 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I cannot help but wonder why nobody can just post the scriptures that say "Jesus is no longer a man", or "Jesus has no body because it's a spiritual body" (wait, wut? lol), or "Jesus got a spiritual body at the ascension", or "Jesus lost His resurrection body at the ascension"?

I mean, it would sure make short work of the thread, wouldn't it?
As far as MTD has stated, wouldn’t the “glorified flesh” a.k.a logos had been created in the beginning? Which created all things including itself? Therefore the glorified flesh was in the beginning and created all things even prior to the death, burial, and resurrection? That is just some conclusions I have drawn from what MTD had posted. But he would have to clarify.
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  #102  
Old 11-07-2019, 07:17 AM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I cannot help but wonder why nobody can just post the scriptures that say "Jesus is no longer a man", or "Jesus has no body because it's a spiritual body" (wait, wut? lol), or "Jesus got a spiritual body at the ascension", or "Jesus lost His resurrection body at the ascension"?

I mean, it would sure make short work of the thread, wouldn't it?
Oh, dear diary! Thats a copout, you know exactly why it doesn't say that. Im going to call you out about something, we do use scripture with what were discussing. You and other will use that excuse because your being challenged.

Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom, but to them it is not given.

There may be some things that are not written exactly word for word for what we "need" it to say. thats where the gift of wisdom or knowledge will come in.
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  #103  
Old 11-07-2019, 07:31 AM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
The apostle said when a body is resurrected, it is resurrected "a spiritual body". I provided the scripture that says EXACTLY what I am claiming. You have not provided the scripture that says "when Jesurrected He didn't have a spiritual body yet", or "Jesus got His spiritual body at the ascension."

I already pointed out that the natural body and the spiritual body are, according to Paul, one body in two different states. IT is sown in corruption, IT is raised in incorruption. IT is sown a natural body, IT is raised a spiritual body. "It" is a pronoun that is SINGULAR. A pronoun stands in place of a noun. In this case, "it" means "the body." The body is sown in weakness, the body is raised in power. The body is sown a natural body, the body is raised a spiritual body.

Kind of like how there is a carnal man, and a spiritual man, although they are the same man. A carnal man who becomes a Christian is no longer a carnal man, but a spiritual man. Yet, it is the same man. When we say a "new" man, we mean the man has CHANGED and acquired new qualities, not that Fred has been replaced by Bob.



No scripture says a spirit hath not flesh AND BONES. He said flesh AND BLOOD. The Bible says the life of the flesh is in THE BLOOD. That is the natural body, the image of the first man Adam, his life is in his blood. If he bleeds out he dies. In resurrection, however, the life is in THE SPIRIT. The body is not animated by the blood but by the Spirit.

More to the point, however, He said behold it is I. He specifically said He wasn't a spirit and His touchable body was PROOF HE WAS REALLY ALIVE AND NOT SOME SPOOK. Somehow you completely miss the significance of that. It quite overthrows your theory altogether.

Jesus had no need to pretend. He was really alive. There was no body in the grave because He was resurrected. You never explained why there was no body left in the grave, nor did you address the issue of our resurrection being so very unlike His, in your theory. You never explained why nowadays bodies stay in graves when Christians are allegedly resurrected at death, even though when Jesus - the firstfruits of the resurrection - left behind no body.

You also did not show the scriptures that say at the ascension His body dissipated or "became spiritual".
I already used this scripture. Let this be a witness that I do indeed use scripture to back up the truth.

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE."

Body wasn't glorified, when he ascended into the heavens he translated into the spiritual, why because thats how its going to be with us. The flesh will go back from whence it was created, and our spiritual man will be with our creator.

2 Corinthians 5:8
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT from the body, and to be PRESENT with the Lord."

You can look up the word "body" its talking about out physical body, you look up the word absent and it means depart.

Nicodemus Commentary for 2 Corinthians 5:8, "depart from the body, you'll be with your God"

Ive heard before from a "friend" of both Bro. Benincasa and myself as well talked about this subject, and he stated this verse is talking about this body of sin, were to be present with Lord here on earth. And that is simply not true.
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  #104  
Old 11-07-2019, 08:20 AM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
Oh, dear diary! Thats a copout, you know exactly why it doesn't say that. Im going to call you out about something, we do use scripture with what were discussing. You and other will use that excuse because your being challenged.

Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom, but to them it is not given.

There may be some things that are not written exactly word for word for what we "need" it to say. thats where the gift of wisdom or knowledge will come in.
Sounds like you are providing a copout, to be honest. Either we say what the Scriptures say, or we are wrong. Pretty simple.
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  #105  
Old 11-07-2019, 08:29 AM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
I already used this scripture. Let this be a witness that I do indeed use scripture to back up the truth.

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE."

Body wasn't glorified, when he ascended into the heavens he translated into the spiritual, why because thats how its going to be with us. The flesh will go back from whence it was created, and our spiritual man will be with our creator.

2 Corinthians 5:8
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT from the body, and to be PRESENT with the Lord."

You can look up the word "body" its talking about out physical body, you look up the word absent and it means depart.

Nicodemus Commentary for 2 Corinthians 5:8, "depart from the body, you'll be with your God"

Ive heard before from a "friend" of both Bro. Benincasa and myself as well talked about this subject, and he stated this verse is talking about this body of sin, were to be present with Lord here on earth. And that is simply not true.
You are correct, I misread what you typed. My bad. He specified a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone, which He did in fact have. This proves He was NOT a disembodied spirit, but that He had really resurrected, it was really Him. Again, though, this actually proves my point: when He was raised, He had a very real body, His own personal body, of flesh and bone... and Paul says that resurrection body is a spiritual body.

So your theory that a spiritual body is not actually a real personal body is still contradicted by the plain scripture.

You said "when He ascended into heaven He translated into the spiritual", repeating your assertion yet again, but without any Scripture that says that, indicates that, suggests that, requires that, or remotely implies that.
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  #106  
Old 11-07-2019, 08:31 AM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

How is a spiritual body not a body? You object to us believing Jesus has His own personal resurrected body because, according to you, He has a spiritual body? That is a contradiction. If He has a spiritual body, then it is still a body. Spiritual body doesn't mean no body.
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  #107  
Old 11-07-2019, 08:32 AM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
As far as MTD has stated, wouldn’t the “glorified flesh” a.k.a logos had been created in the beginning? Which created all things including itself? Therefore the glorified flesh was in the beginning and created all things even prior to the death, burial, and resurrection? That is just some conclusions I have drawn from what MTD had posted. But he would have to clarify.
MTD doesn't clarify as a matter of policy, I guess?

lol
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  #108  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:59 AM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
Mike,
You need to break your thoughts in smaller spaces, not thesis form? The Bible can be discussed, iron sharpeners iron, yet the you take a whole page form your book or whatever gets overwhelming to have a discussion. In a sense your having a conversation by yourself.
No problem.. However, nobody was saying anything before the time I responded with those notes, while I awaited a response. So, I thought to lay out some information dealing with what was already stated, especially over the confusion between natural and physical.

Thanks for your thoughts and I will deal with them. I hope this doesn't veer into an attitude, which is what happened from the Start with TJJJ. It really did.
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  #109  
Old 11-07-2019, 12:59 PM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

For background and context, I present below something I wrote about three years ago from this thread, which Mike Blume was kind enough to resurrect.

Quote:
I believe the following things:

1.) Jesus resurrected into the very body which He had when He died on the cross. It was a spiritual event, caused by "the glory of the Father" (Romans 6:4), but the effect was entirely physical, and occurred in the natural, material realm. Jesus plainly said, after His resurrection, that He was not mere spirit, but had flesh and bones, something spirits do not have (Luke 24:39). He invited them to touch Him and experience Him through their tactile senses, to prove the reality of His resurrected physicality. He was not a mirage, or a vision, or mass hallucination. He was present and accounted for, in true physical fashion.

However...

2.) Christ's physically resurrected reality defies the laws of physics and all other forms of natural science and medicine. His body had massive, unhealed wounds in them, and yet, He wasn't bleeding all over the place, and felt no pain, as shown when He invited Thomas to "reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side" (John 20:27). No normal, human body can experience holes in the hands and feet, and have a gaping hole the size of a Roman spear-head sufficient for a man to put his entire hand into it, and be considered standard.

It appears therefore, that there was no blood in His resurrected body (an assumption, I admit, but circumstantially born out by the evidence, i.e. the bloodlessness of His resurrected, but still mortally wounded/unhealed body).

This shows that, while His body was physical and real, it had become like something the world had never seen before.

3.) Jesus could obscure Himself supernaturally, after He resurrected, so that close, personal friends and disciples, who had walked with Him, talked with Him, and had even eaten the Passover Seder with Him before He was crucified, couldn't recognize Him (Luke 24:16). This isn't something a normal human can do, without a disguise or some other act of subterfuge. Jesus somehow made His face not look like His face, or somehow blinded these men's minds from experiencing standard facial recognition.

If the former, then Jesus can shift the physical structure and appearance of His face at will, making the physical nature of His human body unlike anything that has ever existed before.

4.) Jesus can dematerialize and rematerialize Himself at will (Luke 24:31 and John 20:19 and 26). Whether He can miraculously teleport, become invisible (i.e. refract light away from Himself), or phase Himself through walls, or all of the above, the fact is, in order to do so, the nature of His physical body had, in the resurrection, to have undergone a fundamental shift in what other normal human bodies are capable of doing. In order to do what Jesus did (disappear, reappear, teleport, and/or etc.) means that Jesus had to have been able to divest Himself of any standard molecular reality, while maintaining control over His existence in order to reinvest Himself with molecular reality. Physical molecules at the microscopic level are still physical, and cannot occupy the same space as say, the molecules that made up the door Jesus must have teleported or phased through in John 20. This means His molecules passed out of physical existence into a spiritual reality we cannot comprehend, then re-emerged back into comprehensible, physical reality.

5.) Jesus can defy gravity (Acts 1:9). As Christ ascended through the atmosphere, some scientific realities must be understood. Eventually, as one ascends higher and higher in the sky, breathable oxygen disappears, and the temperature plummets dramatically. If Christ didn't somehow phase His physical body out into a spiritual reality, then it would have to be realized that Jesus can exist in a physical frame without the need to breath, or to have warmth.

Since Jesus is now immortal, it might stand to reason, of course, that He had and has no need of blood, oxygen, and etc., in order to keep Him alive, but if His body was truly physical when He resurrected (and it was) then by necessity, unless we want to think of Jesus as some merely re-animated corpse a la a horror or zombie flick, we must recognize that such a physical body must still have some kind of physical needs. Jesus could eat (Luke 24:42). He could speak, (obviously, no Scripture reference needed!), but speaking requires the ability to breath, as exhaled air passes over the vocal cords.

And yet, as He ascended physically, if no change in Him occurred, Jesus would have lost the ability to breath, and thus, to speak, in any physical, natural way, that is.

6.) If no change into a spiritual form took place some time during the ascension, Jesus would have had to move His body to escape velocity, which is 7 miles/second, or 25,000 mph. And since escape velocity is not dependent upon the mass of the body leaving orbit, but rather upon the body from which the escaping body is departing, the same would be true of Christ's body: He would have had to move that physical form 25,000 mph to leave earth's orbit. See: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-es...age-human-body

This is where the whole Jesus still has a physical body begins to really break down. The stress of tidal and g-forces of 25,000 mph upon an unprotected human body, which hasn't been glorified yet in heaven, would tear it apart (This is called the Roche limit. It's what causes meteors to break up in earth's atmosphere as they descend through the sky, or satellites as they lose orbit and fall into the atmosphere). We could of course argue that the power of the Most High would hold Christ's body together, but...

7.) If Christ ascended through outer space in a physical form, and God kept it from being ripped to shreds, allowed it to survive without breathing, and kept it from immediately freezing into a solid mass of ice, then at some point however long it took, Christ ascended to a realm within the physical universe, meaning the "heaven" He ascended to was merely some place in the vastness of space. If Christ's body is still physical, then the heaven He ascended to has to be physical as well, and thus, a part of the material universe. This means the heaven we all want to go to and enjoy has a geo-spatial reality and relationship to where we are today on earth, that, with enough time and the proper heading, without any collisions, we could physically travel there, taking perhaps the same route Christ took in His ascension. Newtonian physics would allow us to get there, eventually, even if it took a million earth years.

But if Christ ascended to the Third Heaven, i.e. the Heaven of Heaven's, that cannot contain God, according to Solomon, then Jesus at some point had to have transcended the Second Heaven (i.e. the Celestial Realm of the physical universe) and gone off in a spiritual unknown.

8.) With all that being said, God can re-materialize the physical body of His Son at will in the physical, material realm--meaning it still exists, and as I believe, one day will for sure, when Christ returns in true, albeit fully glorified, physical form, "with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God..." (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Quote:
Lastly all this talk about the Son of God no longer existing...

Jesus said, "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass..." (Revelation 2:18).

The glorified in heaven Messiah at the right hand of the Majesty on High who had departed earth decades before He spoke the words above, called Himself the Son of God.

The author of Hebrews wrote that God is able to save to the uttermost all that come to Him through His Son (Hebrews 7:25). Since God is still saving people to the uttermost those who come to Him through Christ Jesus the Son of God, then Jesus is still the Son of God.
Quote:
I have not meant to say that the physical body of the Lord Jesus is now non-existent; rather it exists in a spiritual form that allows it to be in a spiritual place, i.e. heaven.

It's something akin to receiving the Holy Spirit. We receive a real Spirit, but it is no way physical, i.e. has no physical properties (e.g. mass, weight, and etc.), and yet the Holy Spirit literally enters our bodies and is physically present within us.

How is this so?

I don't know, but it is. In the same way, but in reverse, the physical body of Jesus has entered into the spiritual realm, where no physical properties exist, and yet, His body still exists, albeit in a way that permits access to Heaven (therefore, His body is now not physical, i.e. it has no physical properties, even though physical properties can be given back to it--yet if and when such is done, His body will no longer be in heaven, but in the physical, material universe, like at His Second Coming).
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  #110  
Old 11-07-2019, 01:13 PM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

Now, with all that being posted and revisited, the question yet remains, where do the Holy Scriptures show that Christ no longer has a physical body while abiding in the heavenlies at the Right Hand of God?

I think two verses sum it up nicely:

Hebrews 5:7,

Quote:
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
The days of Christ's flesh strongly suggests that there were and are days in which Christ has no flesh. The timeframe for having flesh is while He was here on earth. The timeframe for when Christ has no flesh is when He is not here on earth, that is, not here presently in a physical body.

But Christ is here, on earth, presently, albeit in the following manner:

1 Corinthians 15:45,

Quote:
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
The Last Adam, Jesus of Nazareth is now a "quickening spirit", that is, a Life-Giving Spirit. Jesus is here on earth in, through, and as the Spirit of Truth, sometimes called the "Spirit of Christ" (Romans 8:9), the 'Spirit of God's Son" (Galatians 4:6). Jesus said as much when He said "I will not leave you comfortless. I will come to you" in John 14:18.

Jesus returned to earth as the Comforter, or Paracletos (See John 14:16), that is, as Spirit, not as flesh. That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of Spirit is spirit (John 3:6). There is a difference between the two.

Now, if Christ should like to manifest Himself physically in the material realm, He may do so at His own discretion, for whatever are the eternal purposes of God.

But the chief manner and expression of Christ being manifested physically in the material realm, is in and through us, the Church, that is, His Body, for "as He is, so are we, in this present world" (1 John 4:17).

It behooves us then, to strive to achieve the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (Ephesians 4:13), which is, I believe, the true "Second Coming" of the Lord taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and elsewhere.

Matthew 10:24-25,

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The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord.
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