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  #151  
Old 11-10-2019, 06:21 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Flesh (depending on the context), flesh and bone (very common expression also in the Old Testament), flesh and blood, are all idioms. You can't think of them as telling you something hidden or scientifically literal to the modern reader.

The word natural in 1 Cor 15:44 is also translated as "sensual" in other contexts. It is referring to the current human body with its sensual desires. In the resurrection we won't be struggling with sensuality:
Mat 22:30 KJV - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I don't see how Paul is referring to "natural" or "flesh and blood" contrasting with "spiritual" from the scientific standpoint of biology or physics. It can only mean that in our current rationale/scientific-brain-washed minds. That contrast simply talks about the sensuality, dominance of carnal instincts, etc..., we struggle with vs the free from all those things and lead by the spirit bodies we will have. They are both physicals, but one sensual, glutton, savage, greedy, and the other one free from the intrinsic natural desires that make you commit those sins to begin with, e.g. the desire to procreate.
You have to trust God with the details regarding how it will actually be.
Are you saying the difference between the natural body and the spiritual body is a matter of sin vs sinlessness? It seems to me that is what you are essentially saying. But if that is true, then Jesus had His spiritual body during His earthly life, and never had a natural body. Which contradicts Paul's teaching on the resurrection, that it is the natural body which dies and the spiritual body which rises. Furthermore, the NT commands us to be led by the Spirit and subject to the law of God in this life, prior to either physical death or resurrection. So it seems that the distinction between natural bodies and spiritual bodies is more than just the presence or absence of sin. The natural body is defined by Paul as weak and mortal and corruptible, subject to death, whereas the spiritual body is defined as a body of power, incorruptible, immortal, not subject to death, etc. This indicates the distinction is in fact metaphysical, having to do with the very "substance" of the body and it's characteristics, and not merely the moral character of the individual.

I may, however, have misunderstood what you were saying. If so please clarify.
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  #152  
Old 11-10-2019, 07:04 PM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post
Not at all Mike, the real problem is what perspective are you using versus my using.

We look at the same verse and see two different things.

You see physical and I see spiritual.

You talk about the body of Christ Jesus and see a little body in heaven somewhere, sitting on the right hand of God the Father Jesus.

I talk about the Body of Christ and see the Church. The Body of Christ!

Sitting on the Right hand of Power.

As long as you hold on to the physical dimension you will never see the spiritual.
Let's examine this little tidbit of pearly wisdom, shall we?

To think of a "little body in heaven somewhere" is to have a "physical" mindset. But to think of a bunch of little bodies on earth is to have a "spiritual" mindset.

As any reasonable person can see, this so called "spiritual" mindset isn't all it's cracked up to be.
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  #153  
Old 11-10-2019, 07:14 PM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post

You need the physical body because to you everything is physical.

Physical sabbath, laws for the physical, ie not eating pork and etc....

You guys are living in the OT.

The moment that you realize that the NT is spiritual then you lose the physical necessity.
That is your problem.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Romans 8:1-8)

According to TJ's heresy, to be subject to the law of God is to be physical or "carnal", and "stuck in the OT". To be "spiritual" is, according to him, to be free from such pesky things as the commandments of God.

But according to the New Testament, not being subject to the law of God is to be carnal, "in the flesh", and such people CANNOT please God. Whereas those who are spiritual and NOT carnal are those in whom the righteousness of the law is fulfilled, who do not walk according to the flesh (in disobedience to the law of God). Thus, those who refuse to submit to the law of God are carnal and in the flesh and cannot please God. Regardless of how much they pretend they are "spiritual" and above the rest of us simple minded folk who just want to do what God says to do.
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  #154  
Old 11-10-2019, 07:22 PM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post
I have argued this with the Mormons and JW's for long enough to see the same doctrinal position with them also.
The JWs believe that Jesus Christ never did actually resurrect, that He dissolved in the grave and God re-created the archangel Michael who now (they say) goes by the name "Jesus" and who has a spiritual angelic body. They also believe the 144,000 resurrect immediately upon death and go to heaven in spiritual bodies, completely different from the bodies the rest of the saints (and of all mankind) will have on their resurrection. They also believe the Parousia of Jesus was an invisible "coming" indicated by war and commotion, just like TJ does. The only difference is TJ and them disagree about the date. Basically, TJ and the JWs have quite a bit in common, including the utter inability to actually support their theories with Bible, chapter, and verse, instead just demanding everyone believe their claims, don't ask questions, and anyone who doesn't buy what they are selling is "unspiritual", "blind", and "deceived".

The Mormons likewise do not base their doctrines and theories on the Bible with book, chapter, and verse, but like TJ require some vague indefinable "illumination" or epiphany, like the Mormon "burning in the bosom testimony". And, also like the Mormons and JWs and Roman Catholics, demand everyone accept their unsupported unbiblical theories just because they say so, and anyone not buying it is "unspiritual" and "deceived" and generally stupid.

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  #155  
Old 11-10-2019, 09:03 PM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJJJ
Not at all Mike, the real problem is what perspective are you using versus my using.

We look at the same verse and see two different things.

You see physical and I see spiritual.
Never able to see that natural is not synonymous with physical. Typical plugged ears while hollering lalala.
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  #156  
Old 11-11-2019, 12:53 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Are you saying the difference between the natural body and the spiritual body is a matter of sin vs sinlessness? It seems to me that is what you are essentially saying. But if that is true, then Jesus had His spiritual body during His earthly life, and never had a natural body. Which contradicts Paul's teaching on the resurrection, that it is the natural body which dies and the spiritual body which rises. Furthermore, the NT commands us to be led by the Spirit and subject to the law of God in this life, prior to either physical death or resurrection. So it seems that the distinction between natural bodies and spiritual bodies is more than just the presence or absence of sin. The natural body is defined by Paul as weak and mortal and corruptible, subject to death, whereas the spiritual body is defined as a body of power, incorruptible, immortal, not subject to death, etc. This indicates the distinction is in fact metaphysical, having to do with the very "substance" of the body and it's characteristics, and not merely the moral character of the individual.

I may, however, have misunderstood what you were saying. If so please clarify.

It is definitely more than just sin vs sinless, as you can see how I say that the new bodies will be "free from...desire to procreate":
Mat 22:30 KJV - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This is what I believe and makes sense to me:


We will resurrect like him:

Act 26:23 KJV - That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
1Jo 3:2 KJV - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

How Jesus resurrection was:

Luk 24:36 KJV - And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:39, 41 KJV - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. ... And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

Jesus had a material body, but it could appear and disappear. He could also eat and could recognize the disciples (not Amnesia, or not know who you are). Notice the expression "flesh and bones" and how Jesus used it to contrast it with "spirit", which is a clear indication of a material essence. The expression "flesh and bones" doesn't mean bloodless. It is a Hebrew idiom to mean human or in figurative speech as in "you are my flesh and my bones". You can search the expression in the OT.

This was intentional, it means that the body was brought back to life and changed:

Luk 24:3 KJV - And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.


Now, when people go to the Paulines letter, they get confused as they also get confused with speaking in tongues and such. Didn't Peter say it? 2Pe 3:15 KJV - And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

To really understand it you know you need to know the context well, otherwise you end up interpreting verses like Rom 12:8 that some people ought to show mercy and some don't, or that in 1 Corinthians 7:34, the married women can't be concerned of the things of the Lord.


Regarding the natural body vs spiritual body in 1 Cor 15 debate, what triggered the whole passage?
This: 1Co 15:35 KJV - But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

What was the point of Paul? I believe that Paul is simply stating that we are talking about different natures, and yes they are still material, otherwise it will contradict the witnesses of Jesus resurrection that he also mentioned at the beginning of the chapter, but they are different nature. In fact, the Corintians apparently got well the idea that we are actually brought back to life, but they were confused with the nature of the new life. He was the one that preached to the Corintians first (Act 18:1, 1Co 15:1); so Paul had preached about the resurrection before to them. So at this point he was extending the topic.

Some may argue that the question in verse 35 is a rhetorical question trying to highlight that resurrection was "absurd" from those saying that there was no resurrection and Paul was trying to answer it, but I believe that it was an honest question from those that believed it. Paul had already addressed the first group in the previous verses, and detailing so much about the nature of the resurrected body makes me think he wasn't just trying to shut up those that said there wasn't resurrection.

It seems that they didn't understand that even though it was the material body, it needed to change into a different nature.
You can see this clearly if you analyze the verses prior to verse 44, how Paul uses illustration to get you to reason and understand that when we are talking of the resurrected bodies in the age to come, we are talking about a different "nature/kind" in comparison with our current body.
That's why Paul says in verse 52 that "we shall be changed" to the new nature, and in verse 53, that we "must put on". Our body have to change to the new nature to enter into the manifested kingdom of God. That takes us to verse 50 where he says "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". There must be a changed in nature. I don't believe the "flesh and blood" here means a literal biological sense, but instead the current human nature that is mortal, and corruptible, which make sense in the context of the whole passage. You can change "flesh and blood" with "mortal man".

So yes, I believe the new nature will be: material, immortal, incorruptible, sinless, full of life!

We are definitely not "spirits" in the resurrection.

Last edited by coksiw; 11-11-2019 at 01:29 AM.
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  #157  
Old 11-11-2019, 08:05 AM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
It is definitely more than just sin vs sinless, as you can see how I say that the new bodies will be "free from...desire to procreate":
Mat 22:30 KJV - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This is what I believe and makes sense to me:


We will resurrect like him:

Act 26:23 KJV - That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
1Jo 3:2 KJV - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

How Jesus resurrection was:

Luk 24:36 KJV - And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:39, 41 KJV - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. ... And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

Jesus had a material body, but it could appear and disappear. He could also eat and could recognize the disciples (not Amnesia, or not know who you are). Notice the expression "flesh and bones" and how Jesus used it to contrast it with "spirit", which is a clear indication of a material essence. The expression "flesh and bones" doesn't mean bloodless. It is a Hebrew idiom to mean human or in figurative speech as in "you are my flesh and my bones". You can search the expression in the OT.

This was intentional, it means that the body was brought back to life and changed:

Luk 24:3 KJV - And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.


Now, when people go to the Paulines letter, they get confused as they also get confused with speaking in tongues and such. Didn't Peter say it? 2Pe 3:15 KJV - And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

To really understand it you know you need to know the context well, otherwise you end up interpreting verses like Rom 12:8 that some people ought to show mercy and some don't, or that in 1 Corinthians 7:34, the married women can't be concerned of the things of the Lord.


Regarding the natural body vs spiritual body in 1 Cor 15 debate, what triggered the whole passage?
This: 1Co 15:35 KJV - But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

What was the point of Paul? I believe that Paul is simply stating that we are talking about different natures, and yes they are still material, otherwise it will contradict the witnesses of Jesus resurrection that he also mentioned at the beginning of the chapter, but they are different nature. In fact, the Corintians apparently got well the idea that we are actually brought back to life, but they were confused with the nature of the new life. He was the one that preached to the Corintians first (Act 18:1, 1Co 15:1); so Paul had preached about the resurrection before to them. So at this point he was extending the topic.

Some may argue that the question in verse 35 is a rhetorical question trying to highlight that resurrection was "absurd" from those saying that there was no resurrection and Paul was trying to answer it, but I believe that it was an honest question from those that believed it. Paul had already addressed the first group in the previous verses, and detailing so much about the nature of the resurrected body makes me think he wasn't just trying to shut up those that said there wasn't resurrection.

It seems that they didn't understand that even though it was the material body, it needed to change into a different nature.
You can see this clearly if you analyze the verses prior to verse 44, how Paul uses illustration to get you to reason and understand that when we are talking of the resurrected bodies in the age to come, we are talking about a different "nature/kind" in comparison with our current body.
That's why Paul says in verse 52 that "we shall be changed" to the new nature, and in verse 53, that we "must put on". Our body have to change to the new nature to enter into the manifested kingdom of God. That takes us to verse 50 where he says "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". There must be a changed in nature. I don't believe the "flesh and blood" here means a literal biological sense, but instead the current human nature that is mortal, and corruptible, which make sense in the context of the whole passage. You can change "flesh and blood" with "mortal man".

So yes, I believe the new nature will be: material, immortal, incorruptible, sinless, full of life!

We are definitely not "spirits" in the resurrection.


Although I suspect it is possible our resurrected bodies will not have blood (the llife of the flesh in the blood, thats the Adamic body, the new will be animated by the Spirit). I also don't see it as a major issue: we may indeed have blood, but the animating force will not be natural life but spiritual life. In any event, I pretty much agree with what you said.

About baptism for the dead, many speculations abound. Do you think it is possible he was referring to Christ? "If the dead do not rise, Christ is still dead, so why was anyone baptised into Christ (ie for a dead man) if the dead rise not?" Thoughts?
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  #158  
Old 11-11-2019, 01:46 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post


Although I suspect it is possible our resurrected bodies will not have blood (the llife of the flesh in the blood, thats the Adamic body, the new will be animated by the Spirit). I also don't see it as a major issue: we may indeed have blood, but the animating force will not be natural life but spiritual life. In any event, I pretty much agree with what you said.

About baptism for the dead, many speculations abound. Do you think it is possible he was referring to Christ? "If the dead do not rise, Christ is still dead, so why was anyone baptised into Christ (ie for a dead man) if the dead rise not?" Thoughts?
Looking at the topic being defended there, I see that: the point was that if there is not resurrection then several things would lack any sense, those being:

- preaching is vain
- faith is vain
- we are still in our sins (if he didn't raise then, his dead wasn't expiatory, for he simply died like any other man)
- we would be the most miserable (suffering persecution for nothing as he extends in verse 30-32)

In this context, I believe the "dead" here means Christ death and our death in baptism: the whole concept of "death" associated with baptism. I understand that "they" is referring to the same "they that are Christ's" (v 23). What I get in the passage is that Paul is strongly saying: there is no entering into the manifested kingdom of God (future aspect of salvation) without resurrection, and there is no resurrection unless you are baptized into Christ death for the remission of sins, where you also die. If there is not resurrection, then why being baptized into his death? Or more: if Christ didn't raise, how do we have the testimony and sign from God that his death was in fact expiatory for our sins? That was the sign left to the world that this is the real deal; that we should not look anywhere else to be saved.

Paul is definitely making all of this as an inseparable thing: resurrection being a core component in the salvation, there is no entering in heaven without resurrection, and if the dead doesn't raise then, in Paul's mind, everything else we do or preach is nonsense.

Those are my thoughts. So I agree with you, but also I think Paul used a more general phrase for the whole relationship between baptism and dead. There is also a rhetorical component here by the repetition of the word nekros (dead) so many times in the passage (14 times).

That or Paul was just contradicting the "there is no resurrection" people because they used to baptize on behalf of the dead even though they didn't believe in the resurrection (and "they" means those guys). This position needs a lot of historical context to prove that those that believe in no resurrection were in fact also people that practiced baptism on behalf of the dead. I haven't even looked into it.

Last edited by coksiw; 11-11-2019 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 11-11-2019, 02:48 PM
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

(29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Paul furthers his argument for a resurrection of the believers by asking people what other purpose would there be for baptism for the dead if believers are not going to resurrect.

Some scholars claim that this is the most difficult verse in the entire New Testament.

Paul referred to the death of Jesus Christ, into which we enter by water baptism, and the term also referred to the experience of death when a believer is martyred, when he wrote the phrase, “baptized for the dead.”

This same apostle explained, in His Epistle to the Romans, that baptism into Jesus Christ’s death causes us to be one of those who rise to walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:3-5 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Water baptism, which I believe Romans 6:3 is clearly speaking about, puts us into the death of Jesus Christ by faith. It’s not baptism only, though, but faith coupled with baptism. It is for the purpose of seeing us rise to walk in newness of life just as Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. Paul clearly wrote about a spiritual resurrection in this chapter in association with baptism. Therefore, the mention of baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15 refers to this truth. Resurrection is the goal and purpose of baptism into Christ’s death.

In Romans Chapter 6, Paul clearly spoke about a non-physical resurrection. When we read through until verse 13, Romans 6 informs us that those baptized into Christ’s death are meant to walk in the resurrection of newness of life, which is the reason we yield ourselves to God as those alive from the dead, afterward.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Therefore, in this instance of 1 Corinthians 15’s reference to baptism for the dead, Paul supported the principle of resurrection from the dead. By having referred to baptism, which is known to bring us into a spiritual resurrection, there are also the words of Jesus that indicate that another form of baptism that is apart from water but, nonetheless, promises a physical resurrection.

Matthew 20:21-23 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. (22) But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. (23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Jesus’ reference to baptism in this passage is actually speaking about death. It refers to being killed as a martyr.

Paul wrote about the hope of a resurrection after this life in the Book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

People who became believers in Paul’s day during the heavy persecution of the church did not do so blindly, without having known what dangers they entered. They knew that they risked their lives. Hence, when they got baptized, they really did accept both a spiritual death of the old man, as well as loss of physical life in death because they believed in a physical resurrection. People would not risk their lives by becoming believers in Christ if they weren’t willing to give their lives in death upon their baptisms.
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Last edited by mfblume; 11-11-2019 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 11-11-2019, 02:57 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Glorified Flesh?

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and the term also referred to the experience of death when a believer is martyred, when he wrote the phrase, “baptized for the dead.”
That's another good explanation, taking into account that what follows to that is a description of persecution.
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