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  #41  
Old 10-06-2019, 11:04 PM
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Re: What will we do in the Millennium?

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Agreed
More than that... Christ is seated at the right hand of God... we're seated with Christ... we're seated at the right hand of God.
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  #42  
Old 10-07-2019, 08:02 AM
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More than that... Christ is seated at the right hand of God... we're seated with Christ... we're seated at the right hand of God.
Amen!! And look where that is...

Ep. 1:..21....Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
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  #43  
Old 11-03-2019, 03:39 AM
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Re: What will we do in the Millennium?

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Ever think of the devil being bound with a chain in Rev 20 as the way we are meant to understand it in these verses?

2Pe 2:4..For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast..them..down to hell, and delivered..them..into..chains..of..darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;..

Jud 1:6..And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting..chains..under..darkness..unto the judgment of the great day.

These demons are bound already with chains since before the cross, but still active. This is because the bondage is one particular area of restraint, not all restraint. Same with the binding of Satan in Rev 20.
No. The reason is because of two things:

1. There is nothing in Scripture that identifies "fallen angels" as "demons". And,

2. I believe a very good case can be made (as has been made here on this forum) that Peter and Jude are referring to Enochite Jewish myths as part of a polemic against Enochite Jewish subverters and infiltrators of the church. Thus, neither Peter nor Jude are necessarily endorsing an idea of "fallen angels" as being a genuine reality. Rather, they are using fallen angel mythology current in Enochite Judaism as part of their refutation of said schismatic Judaism and its promoters.
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  #44  
Old 11-03-2019, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post

No. The reason is because of two things:

1. There is nothing in Scripture that identifies "fallen angels" as "demons". And,

2. I believe a very good case can be made (as has been made here on this forum) that Peter and Jude are referring to Enochite Jewish myths as part of a polemic against Enochite Jewish subverters and infiltrators of the church. Thus, neither Peter nor Jude are necessarily endorsing an idea of "fallen angels" as being a genuine reality. Rather, they are using fallen angel mythology current in Enochite Judaism as part of their refutation of said schismatic Judaism and its promoters.
this idea of the Apostles and Jesus using Myths is really off key. For example the rich man and Lazarus is supposed to be a myth that there really isn't any place of fire of Torment. That would cause people to think that he's confirming something that's false, and I don't see Jesus and apostles ever doing that. Sorry. They said that there were angels who lost their first estate, not using any mythological belief that wasn't true.
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  #45  
Old 11-03-2019, 08:53 AM
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Re: What will we do in the Millennium?

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this idea of the Apostles and Jesus using Myths is really off key. For example the rich man and Lazarus is supposed to be a myth that there really isn't any place of fire of Torment. That would cause people to think that he's confirming something that's false, and I don't see Jesus and apostles ever doing that. Sorry. They said that there were angels who lost their first estate, not using any mythological belief that wasn't true.
Brother Blume, the Bible is proof that they used mythological imagery of the people around them. I'm not in any means supporting an idea that they thought the myths to be real, but they used them because the people (and everyone else) around them understood the imagery. Baal was a weather god that rode on a cloud, just like Zeus. But the God of the Bible doesn't need to ride on anything but still His prophets choose to use that mythos to portray Him as the ONLY ONE who controls weather. It was a slap in the face so to speak to the pagan groups around them. Here is God riding on a cloud, and coming into Egypt, and the idols of Egypt are shaking like puppies passing peach pits at His PRESENCE Isaiah 19:1. The Prophet Isaiah is using the mythos of the pagan groups to portray the invisible God who has no image as the real God through their mythological imagery. The Israelites had the invisible God, He was one who had no form, other than His male attributes. He didn't have wings, He didn't fly on a cloud, and didn't have the face of a lion, man, eagle, or an oxen. He didn't have two, or six wings, and didn't have cloven hoofs. But the prophets used the imagery of all the groups around them to not only relay their message, but to show who REALLY was the God who created the weather, and controlled it. Who wasn't an idol, but could make those idols shake at His presence of the cloud. Esaias and I had a thread where we discussed how the Apostles used Greek philosophers, and Judean stories of tradition to relay their points. They weren't advocating these writers or these traditions, but using them to prove their points.
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  #46  
Old 11-03-2019, 11:38 AM
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Re: What will we do in the Millennium?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
this idea of the Apostles and Jesus using Myths is really off key. For example the rich man and Lazarus is supposed to be a myth that there really isn't any place of fire of Torment. That would cause people to think that he's confirming something that's false, and I don't see Jesus and apostles ever doing that. Sorry. They said that there were angels who lost their first estate, not using any mythological belief that wasn't true.
Where did they learn about angels leaving their first estate and being Tartarised? (Peter used that term, "cast into Tartarus", a place known only in Greek mythology as the prison of the Titans.)

Where did they learn about Michael and the Devil arguing about Moses' body?

These are given as familiar examples to prove a point, thus the readers were familiar with those stories. How? How was anybody aware of those stories?

It is because both stories are contained in late post Exilic Jewish pseudepigrapha. The "book of Enoch", the "book of Jubilees", the "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs", and many others.

As for the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, again the same questions can be asked. Jesus was either affirming the correctness of extrabiblical Pharisaic tradition, or He was using their tradition against them to make a point. He certainly wasn't just revealing for the first time ever new insights about the after death state. If He was, He was late to the party because the Pharisees already knew that stuff. Which of course means He was using their tradition against them to make a point about them, something He did on numerous occasions.
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  #47  
Old 11-03-2019, 12:52 PM
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Re: What will we do in the Millennium?

Brother Blume here is the thread where Esaias and I have a discussion on the topic of how the Judeans incorporated the cultural mythos to prove their points.


http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...56#post1420056

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...56&postcount=1
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  #48  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:35 AM
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Re: What will we do in the Millennium?

Addressing the stories and their sources that Peter and Jude used about fallen angels, the first thing that comes to my mind is that there are books Israel had and the Bible references that no longer exist. These references don't have to be from the Book of Enoch or other mythical sources.

Book of Jasher
Obed the Seer
Wars of the Lord
Chronicles of the Kings of Israel
Chronicles of the Kings of Judah
Book of Shemaiah the Prophet
Visions of Iddo the Seer
Book of the Acts of Solomon
Book of Nathan the Prophet also called Nathan the Prophet or The Acts of Nathan the Prophet or History of Nathan the Prophet.
Gad the Seer.
The Sayings of the Seers.

Did Peter and Jude have access to these?

I have considered the book of Enoch's reliability, and we can find the reference Jude makes to Enoch prophesying, but anyone can take Jude's verse and surround it with abunch of nonsense and claim they found the Book of Enoch and then point to the verse from Jude in the middle of it all. IOW, perhpas it was not from a mythical book we have that is alleged to be Enoch's, but the actual book of Enoch no longer in existence.
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  #49  
Old 11-10-2019, 07:51 PM
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Re: What will we do in the Millennium?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Addressing the stories and their sources that Peter and Jude used about fallen angels, the first thing that comes to my mind is that there are books Israel had and the Bible references that no longer exist. These references don't have to be from the Book of Enoch or other mythical sources.

Book of Jasher
Obed the Seer
Wars of the Lord
Chronicles of the Kings of Israel
Chronicles of the Kings of Judah
Book of Shemaiah the Prophet
Visions of Iddo the Seer
Book of the Acts of Solomon
Book of Nathan the Prophet also called Nathan the Prophet or The Acts of Nathan the Prophet or History of Nathan the Prophet.
Gad the Seer.
The Sayings of the Seers.

Did Peter and Jude have access to these?

I have considered the book of Enoch's reliability, and we can find the reference Jude makes to Enoch prophesying, but anyone can take Jude's verse and surround it with abunch of nonsense and claim they found the Book of Enoch and then point to the verse from Jude in the middle of it all. IOW, perhpas it was not from a mythical book we have that is alleged to be Enoch's, but the actual book of Enoch no longer in existence.
Just a side note, I have a copy of "The Book of Jasher", and i do believe the thing is a forgery. The phrase "book of Jasher" in Hebrew is literally "the upright (or correct) record", and is likely not a reference to a book called "book of Jasher".

I don't know that anyone is claiming the current books of Enoch (there are I think 3, 4, or 5 of them floating around) are the exact text of Enoch's prophecies mentioned by Jude. I think the reality is this:

There was an Enochite stream of Judaism (this is well documented) in the first couple of centuries BC and first century or two AD. The various extant "books of Enoch" are writings that have have come down from that general time period but with numerous additions, emendations, "corrections", modifications, etc. But the research seems to indicate the various books of Enoch show there was some kind of original corpus of writings attributed to "Enoch" that were popular in certain segments of 1st century Judaism.

It is unlikely the other books you mentioned were available to Peter and Jude, because there is absolutely zero evidence they were available to anybody at that time. They were not current in Judaism, so it is highly unlikely they were current in 1st century Christianity.

The references in 2 Peter and Jude to various events not mentioned in the Bible ARE mentioned in 1st century Jewish pseudepigrapha and apocryphal and mystical sectarian writings. Jude is particularly interesting because he uses the same language and terminology found in not just the book of Enoch but other known Jewish pseudepigrapha all of which - in the Jewish literature - is applied to the fallen angels, but which Jude very clearly applies to the FALSE TEACHERS.

The most important point of all this, however, is not the particular source material for Peter's and Jude's statements, but the fact that just because they referenced certain materials in polemical writing against heretics and false teachers does NOT by any means indicate they APPROVED those materials as being canonical or containing truth. Moreover, none of those writings are Scripture. As brother Benincasa points out, Paul quoted Greek philosophers yet this does not mean those philosopher's writings are to be taken as truth. In fact, Paul had his own polemics against Greek philosophers and their philosophies as being completely ignorant of God's truth.
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  #50  
Old 11-10-2019, 08:58 PM
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Re: What will we do in the Millennium?

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Just a side note, I have a copy of "The Book of Jasher", and i do believe the thing is a forgery. The phrase "book of Jasher" in Hebrew is literally "the upright (or correct) record", and is likely not a reference to a book called "book of Jasher".

I don't know that anyone is claiming the current books of Enoch (there are I think 3, 4, or 5 of them floating around) are the exact text of Enoch's prophecies mentioned by Jude. I think the reality is this:

There was an Enochite stream of Judaism (this is well documented) in the first couple of centuries BC and first century or two AD. The various extant "books of Enoch" are writings that have have come down from that general time period but with numerous additions, emendations, "corrections", modifications, etc. But the research seems to indicate the various books of Enoch show there was some kind of original corpus of writings attributed to "Enoch" that were popular in certain segments of 1st century Judaism.

It is unlikely the other books you mentioned were available to Peter and Jude, because there is absolutely zero evidence they were available to anybody at that time. They were not current in Judaism, so it is highly unlikely they were current in 1st century Christianity.

The references in 2 Peter and Jude to various events not mentioned in the Bible ARE mentioned in 1st century Jewish pseudepigrapha and apocryphal and mystical sectarian writings. Jude is particularly interesting because he uses the same language and terminology found in not just the book of Enoch but other known Jewish pseudepigrapha all of which - in the Jewish literature - is applied to the fallen angels, but which Jude very clearly applies to the FALSE TEACHERS.

The most important point of all this, however, is not the particular source material for Peter's and Jude's statements, but the fact that just because they referenced certain materials in polemical writing against heretics and false teachers does NOT by any means indicate they APPROVED those materials as being canonical or containing truth. Moreover, none of those writings are Scripture. As brother Benincasa points out, Paul quoted Greek philosophers yet this does not mean those philosopher's writings are to be taken as truth. In fact, Paul had his own polemics against Greek philosophers and their philosophies as being completely ignorant of God's truth.
Good points, but I think it's too speculative to say Peter and Jude quoted myths to make points.
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