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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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Old 06-15-2009, 03:54 PM
GrowingPains GrowingPains is offline
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Pastoral Authority Part 898,230

This subject has been discussed at length, so sometimes it's best to break it down bite-size. When trying to determine the role of a Pastor in the New Testament, it would be helpful to read the Pastoral Epistles (Titus, 1st and 2nd Timothy). This is not meant to support particular standards, but in reading these books, it clearly shows the job of the pastor and his right/license to ask specific things of the followers of Christ with regard to their current culture.

An example would be with regard to slaves and masters. Or maybe widows. Or maybe who should be used in ministry (so much for those who say use whoever you want regardless if they are saved or not). There's a wealth of resource in these epistles. The pastor is not a lame duck that smiles and says "amen." On the flip side, what was the role of the elders in each church? That's a better question.

Again, this was not intended to pardon any doctrinal discussions concerning specific standards that are purported to have support of Scripture (pants, jewelry, hair, etc). But Christian Living is a major goal of the NT Pastors. Thoughts?
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Old 06-15-2009, 03:58 PM
GrowingPains GrowingPains is offline
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Re: Pastoral Authority Part 898,230

And what does "for they give account for your soul" mean to you?
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Old 06-15-2009, 04:27 PM
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Re: Pastoral Authority Part 898,230

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Originally Posted by GrowingPains View Post
And what does "for they give account for your soul" mean to you?
To me this means Elders give an account for how they instruct and nurture the flock of God.
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Old 06-15-2009, 04:34 PM
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Re: Pastoral Authority Part 898,230

I would take this to mean also to mean that Pastors will give an account in that must make sure that what they teach and preach is biblical.
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:42 AM
GrowingPains GrowingPains is offline
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Re: Pastoral Authority Part 898,230

I definitely think a pastor's authority is evident without question in the NT. I think the concern is how we apply poor exegesis on scriptures and enforce the results on the Body.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:08 AM
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Re: Pastoral Authority Part 898,230

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I definitely think a pastor's authority is evident without question in the NT.
What type of authority, and how much?
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:14 AM
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Re: Pastoral Authority Part 898,230

Could Pastoral authority mean authority to instruct in the word,and authority to instruct the saints in biblical instruction,but not authority as overlords and dictators ?
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:18 AM
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Re: Pastoral Authority Part 898,230

Try as I might I have been unable to find Pastoral Authority Part 898,229

I just hate missing an episode....
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:22 AM
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Re: Pastoral Authority Part 898,230

[QUOTE=GrowingPains;760965]This subject has been discussed at length, so sometimes it's best to break it down bite-size. When trying to determine the role of a Pastor in the New Testament, it would be helpful to read the Pastoral Epistles (Titus, 1st and 2nd Timothy). This is not meant to support particular standards, but in reading these books, it clearly shows the job of the pastor and his right/license to ask specific things of the followers of Christ with regard to their current culture.

It does? Where pray tell me does it give the pastor or what ever one calls him the right to ask... Im not saying that there are not times that he needs to ask things of the followers but that is just the thing to ask.
I cannot understand how someone can be so indoctrinated in one way by tradition and man teaching that they can read something a hundred times an still not see the truth in the word of God.

Example I have heard all my life the authority of the pastor is that one must obey him as long as he is not preaching false doctrine or asking you to sin. And that to not to obey is to put yourself in rebellion which as everyone knows is as the sin of witchcraft in the eyes of God.

Here is something to consider as you set this mere man up on his lofty perch. And blindly follow him on his word alone. Without questioning the word he preaches. Oh I just have anew thought I used to get so upset when people would tell me I was part of a cult because I would give so much obedience to a man and obey him as if his word was law. Note the verse below most specificly the word obey.


Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.


peithō
pi'-tho
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.
Understand we are not to blindly obey any man just because of his position but we are to be persuaded. This means we question the word he/she preaches and study things out for ourselves.

And while one is studying the authority of the leaders go back and look up the meaning of some of the words in the chapters given, Titus, Timothy. And finally study Ephesians where Paul gives the line of authority and it does not include the ministry at all.
The ministry is given to the church to equip and edify the church, as a gift. The church is not given to the ministry to rule. Remember We are the body Christ he is the head not the minister.
Just my opinion sorry to come across so vehimanitly
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:40 PM
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Re: Pastoral Authority Part 898,230

A few things:

1 - Why do we call these epistles (Titus, both Timothy) the "Pastoral Epistles"? The word "pastor" does not even occur in any of them. Are we making an assumption based on our current congregational model/paradigm that Titus and Timothy were lone, singular-rule pastors of congregations as we know them? Do we have either scriptural context or historical accounts that would verify such a statement?

2 - The word "pastor" does not occur in the New Testament canon. The plural form, "pastors" does however - but only twice. We've allowed centuries of tradition to form our logic, and thus we just assume that the correct model for the church is for the main body (laity) be under the authority and leadership of a figurehead (minister), who serves as our vicar. He speaks for God to us, and we ask questions of him in God's stead. But is that the real NT model? There was one example of this in the scripture, but it wasn't referred to favorable. Diotrephes loved to have the pre-eminence... he had to be in charge... he spoke badly about the other ministers around him... wouldn't allow the saints to fellowship outside his congregation. Sound familiar? Check out 3 John.

3 - How can you say that a pastor's authority is evident without question in the NT? Can you show us? And it needs to be something more than Hebrews 13.17, because it takes a pretty impressive scriptural acrobatics to make the assumption that the writer of Hebrews was absolutely talking about single pastor rule. The entire book of Hebrews doesn't mention the pastor at all. Are we making an assumption based on our current model? Are we interpreting scripture through our 21st century understanding?

The church has ONE HEAD... Jesus Christ (not some earthly potentate)
There is ONE MEDIATOR between God and man... Jesus Christ (not a pastor/vicar)
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