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  #301  
Old 08-14-2017, 12:08 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

Quote:
Originally Posted by houston View Post
That's really not fair. People come wounded and need to get this stuff off their chest. Time and time again I've seen them labeled as bitter. That cookie cutter answer doesn't fly. No, forums are not the best place to turn. But where can they go? Their churches disown them. Family turn their backs on them.
Wounded, because their church and/or family believes they ought to have long hair?

I don't get it. We're a nation of victims? I mean, I don't believe there's anything wrong with beards on men, yet I've been a member of churches that teach against beards. I wasn't scarred, battered, bruised, tormented, or any such thing because of it.

I mean we're not talking about crazy cults that literally invade your life, we're talking about a) women having long hair, and b) SOME folks think the long hair gives magic powers, blessings, or something.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I just cannot fathom this issue being anything that would give anyone anything remotely close to a mild case of indigestion.
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  #302  
Old 08-14-2017, 12:11 AM
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

Now, if a church or family believes women ought not to cut their hair, and a member decides to cut their hair, then what do they expect the results to be?

If I told my family I had gotten some enlightenment and was gonna wear skirts from now on, I *guarantee* you I'd become rather solitary, rather quick. So who would be to blame?

Who left who?
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  #303  
Old 08-14-2017, 12:43 AM
houston houston is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Wounded, because their church and/or family believes they ought to have long hair?

I don't get it. We're a nation of victims? I mean, I don't believe there's anything wrong with beards on men, yet I've been a member of churches that teach against beards. I wasn't scarred, battered, bruised, tormented, or any such thing because of it.

I mean we're not talking about crazy cults that literally invade your life, we're talking about a) women having long hair, and b) SOME folks think the long hair gives magic powers, blessings, or something.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I just cannot fathom this issue being anything that would give anyone anything remotely close to a mild case of indigestion.
Some churches are very cult like. Probably very few. But they exist.
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  #304  
Old 08-14-2017, 03:57 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

Quote:
Originally Posted by houston View Post
That's really not fair. People come wounded and need to get this stuff off their chest. Time and time again I've seen them labeled as bitter. That cookie cutter answer doesn't fly. No, forums are not the best place to turn. But where can they go? Their churches disown them. Family turn their backs on them.
I'm more concerned for someone who might be reading this thread, who is wanting to find their way back to God, and maybe God wants them to attend a UPC, but they are poisoned by reading these same types of threads, by the same people over and over.

The injured person can always create a facebook forum.
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Last edited by Amanah; 08-14-2017 at 04:00 AM.
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  #305  
Old 08-14-2017, 08:37 AM
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I've only ever heard from you and a couple other "victims of Pentecost" here, nFCF, and FCF. Occasionally I read a comment on some local forum or blog where someone complains about Pentecostals not being allowed to cut their hair. It was "bondage" according to them because they wanted to wear short hair, makeup, jewelry, pants, shorts, tank tops, watch TV, go to the beach, go clubbing, smoke, drink, and generally live like the world.

In "real life" the only people I've met who think "pentecostal standards are bondage" are either ex-Christians who hate everything Christian with a passion, baptists and Lutherans and Methodists who like their short hair, makeup, jewelry, etc, or uber-liberal types who think Jesus smiles on their dope-smoking fornicating party all week church on Easter Sunday way of living.

Obviously, ymmv.
There are many, many people who have been harmed by these teachings. Most of them won't post publicly because they are unwilling or unable to face the insults, attacks and accusations a person must withstand in order to talk about it openly. Once you begin to talk openly, you get PM's and other correspondence and you realize the problem is huge.
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  #306  
Old 08-14-2017, 08:37 AM
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
Basically, this is woman's liberation for the church. Don't tell her what she should/shouldn't do with her body. Especially if you're a male preacher. Regardless of what the Bible says.
If the bible said uncut that would be somewhat different. But it doesn't.
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  #307  
Old 08-14-2017, 08:40 AM
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

The way I see it, the accusations of "bitter", "can't let it go" and all that are just ways to try and silence the discussion. The uncut hair doctrine really can't withstand scrutiny and so people try and silence the discussion instead.
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  #308  
Old 08-14-2017, 09:51 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Wounded, because their church and/or family believes they ought to have long hair?

I don't get it. We're a nation of victims? I mean, I don't believe there's anything wrong with beards on men, yet I've been a member of churches that teach against beards. I wasn't scarred, battered, bruised, tormented, or any such thing because of it.

I mean we're not talking about crazy cults that literally invade your life, we're talking about a) women having long hair, and b) SOME folks think the long hair gives magic powers, blessings, or something.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I just cannot fathom this issue being anything that would give anyone anything remotely close to a mild case of indigestion.
Well, as a male it really doesn't effect me much. But we visited a UPCI church in Beavercreek, Ohio and my step daughter loved it. She was 7 years old at the time. She loved it because before they began Sunday school the kids worshipped in the sanctuary with the adults. She loved the music, the praise, and the worship. She'd dance in front of the altar, she'd spin, and twirl in her dress (we don't always put her in a dress, so it means something special to her). It was really beautiful. We tried to reign her in once and the pastor, a wonderful man, told us to let her go and enjoy praising Jesus. As most who know me already know, we are "house churchers", but this church was impressive. Almost impressive enough to give up house churching. So, we visited for about two months. Then suddenly one morning my daughter didn't want to go. She was an emotional wreck. It really caught us off guard because she's NEVER like that. She wouldn't tell us what was wrong. She was in tears. We had to demand that she get into the car with her begging us not to go. This is a 7 year old little girl. So I put the brakes on it. I decided we weren't going to go that morning. We were going to focus on what was eating at my daughter. My biggest concern was some form of abuse. As it turns out, the previous Sunday a group of kids told her that Jesus didn't love her because her hair was cut. They also told her that Jesus laughs at her dancing because she has cut hair. Try as I might to explain that these kids were just mean and didn't know what they were talking about. But the damage was done. When we went to evening service she didn't dance. She didn't twirl. She stayed right next to her mother in the pews. The obvious fear and humiliation was all over her face. The next Sunday morning, she threw a fit again. She said she didn't want to go to church with "mean people".

We eventually stopped going for completely different reasons. We often talk about going back but my daughter is 11 now and that's the one thing she remembers about that church. We visited a local Baptist church and the first thing she asked was about hair and if Jesus loves her. She wasn't at ease until she saw women with cut hair. Same when we visited a local Methodist Church (which allowed a group of Friends to meet on their premises that I was visiting).

Now, I know kids can be cruel, but that has been burned into her mind. She honestly thinks that Jesus doesn't love her because she has cut hair. She doesn't like visiting any kind of church because of that. And she's only at ease if she sees women with cut or styled hair. And still, she thinks Jesus might not love her or them either. I'm trying to reprogram her but it's stuck in her head.

Now, my lady love has cut hair and frankly, she didn't experience any issue. Her hair is long and when put up it really doesn't look much different from anyone else's so nobody really criticized her over it anyway.

I was a Sunday school teacher for 7 years. One thing I learned is that kids give you away. If your kids are saying things like Jesus doesn't love women with cut hair, or that women will go to Hell over pants or cut hair, 9 out of 10 times they heard it from their parents. So, obviously at least a few parents in that church believe that a woman who cuts her will go to Hell.

I've also noticed that a lot of churches act like cults in that they don't stress those things up front. They win your trust, build a friendship with you, excuse your cut hair, your beard, or whatever and then as you find yourself emotionally attached and loving the people in the church... they begin tightening the noose. They begin to slowly start requiring that you conform or you're rejected. In my opinion, that's not real love. In fact, that's a tactic common in cults. And this is when the pain comes into play. Losing cherished friendships and a spiritual family you had hopes and dreams of being a part of for perhaps the rest of your life. It's like being disowned. Nothing hurts the human heart more than being rejected by the people you love. When I see someone ranting against a church, certain standards, or an organization and its standards... I see a person who loved that church, loved those people, loved that org... who was hurt over being rejected. Now, if it is over something biblical, then it is on the rejected one to repent if they want restored fellowship. But people get rejected by churches over unbiblical standards every day. In these cases, it is these churches that need to repent and reach out to restore fellowship.

We need to get away from all these extra-biblical teachings of holy magic hair, mandatory uncut doctrines, and condemnation of facial hair on men, blah, blah, blah. The Bible DOESN'T make a strong enough statement to heap so much condemnation on people. We need to get away from making an idol of our "Apostolic Identity" as found in our traditions, and seek identification in the Christ of the Scriptures. Yes, in Christ alone.

Last edited by Aquila; 08-14-2017 at 10:10 AM.
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  #309  
Old 08-14-2017, 09:56 AM
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ILG ILG is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Well, as a male it really doesn't effect me much. But we visited a UPCI church in Beavercreek, Ohio and my step daughter loved it. She was 7 years old at the time. She loved it because before they began Sunday school the kids worshipped in the sanctuary with the adults. She loved the music, the praise, and the worship. She'd dance in front of the altar, she'd spin, and twirl in her dress (we don't always put her in a dress, so it means something special to her). It was really beautiful. We tried to reign her in once and the pastor, a wonderful man, told us to let her go and enjoy praising Jesus. As most who know me already know, we are "house churchers", but this church was impressive. Almost impressive enough to give up house churching. So, we visited for about two months. Then suddenly one morning my daughter didn't want to go. She was an emotional wreck. It really caught us off guard because she's NEVER like that. She wouldn't tell us what was wrong. She was in tears. We had to demand that she get into the car with her begging us not to go. This is a 7 year old little girl. So I put the brakes on it. I decided we weren't going to go that morning. We were going to focus on what was eating at my daughter. My biggest concern was some form of abuse. As it turns out, the previous Sunday a group of kids told her that Jesus didn't love her because her hair was cut. They also told her that Jesus laughs at her dancing because she has cut hair. Try as I might to explain that this kids were just mean and didn't know what they were talking about, the damage was done. When we went to evening service she didn't dance. She didn't twirl. She stayed right next to her mother in the pews. The obvious fear and humiliation was all over her face. The next Sunday morning, she threw a fit again. She said she didn't want to go to church with "mean people".

We stopped going eventually for completely different reasons relating to work and we often talk about going back but my daughter is 11 now and that's the one thing she remembers about that church. We visited a local Baptist church and the first thing she asked was about hair and if Jesus loves her. She wasn't at ease until she saw women with cut hair. Same when we visited a local Methodist Church (which allowed a group of Friends to meet on their premises that I was visiting).

Now, I know kids can be cruel, but that has been burned into her mind. She honestly thinks that Jesus doesn't love her because she has cut hair. She doesn't like visiting any kind of church because of that. And she's only at ease if she sees women with cut or styled hair. And still, she thinks Jesus might not love her or them either. I'm trying to reprogram her but it's stuck in her head.

Now, my has cut hair and frankly, she didn't care. Her hair is long and when put up it really doesn't look much different from anyone else's and nobody really criticized her over it anyway.

I was a Sunday school teacher for 7 years. One thing I learned is that kids give you away. If your kids are saying things like Jesus doesn't love women with cut hair, or that women will go to Hell over pants or cut hair, 9 out of 10 times they heard it from their parents. So, obviously at least a few parents in that church believe that a woman who cuts her will go to Hell.

I've also noticed that a lot of churches act like cults in that they don't stress those things up front. They win your trust, build a friendship with you, excuse your cut hair, your beard, or whatever and then as you find yourself emotionally attached and loving the people in the church... they begin tightening the noose. They begin to slowly start requiring that you conform or you're rejected. In my opinion, that's not real love. That's when the pain comes into play. Losing cherished friendships and a spiritual family you had hopes and dreams of being a part of for perhaps the rest of your life. It's like being disowned. Nothing hurts the human heart more than being rejected by the people you love. When I see someone ranting against a church, certain standards, or an organization and it's standards... I see a person who loved that church, loved those people, loved that org... who was hurt over being rejected. Now, if it is over something biblical, that's on the rejected one to repent if they want restored fellowship. But I know a couple who got as far as being considered for ministry until they were told to give up their wedding bands. The wedding bands had been passed down in their family and were something very dear to them. It became a train wreck. Over a wedding band. So very sad.

We need to get away from all these extra-biblical teachings of holy magic hair, mandatory uncut doctrines, and condemnation of facial hair on men. The Bible DOESN'T make a strong enough statement to heap so much condemnation on people.
I noticed they are starting to get away from the beards issue more than in the past. But men have always been able to push the envelope in ways that women can't. If women say there is a problem and men say there isn't, women are just supposed to be silent and conform.
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  #310  
Old 08-14-2017, 10:01 AM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

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Originally Posted by ILG View Post
If the bible said uncut that would be somewhat different. But it doesn't.
And that's where we differ.
I believe it does.
I have heard all of the arguments on both sides and believe that it does.
I have done my own personal study and believe that it does.
If I get to heaven and there are women there with cut hair, I will be fine with that. It will not lessen my joy in the least.
But, I do not believe there will be women with cut hair AND bad attitudes.
Lol...
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