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  #11  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:43 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Holiness Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
True holiness begins with being honest with ourselves. Are we truly "sinless"? Does the inclination or inherent tendency to commit sin remain? Are there sinful things that we still find alluring?

If so, ontologically speaking, sin remains in us... even if not acted upon.

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Im not so sure about this. Here is why. If the temptation is sin then one can say that Jesus sinned because Jesus was temped and we know that is not the case. If we say the things Jesus was temped with was not alluring or pleasing to his flesh them one could say he was never actually tempted. but we know he was tempted in all points like we are yet without sin.
The point is that temptation alone is not sin. but When lust is conceived, it bringeth forth sin. James1:15

I sure hope people dont believe every time they are tempted that they are sinning. thats leads to a life of condemnation.
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  #12  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:46 PM
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Re: Holiness Standards

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Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
...however, my grandfather, who was also a minister, said that "most" religions were holiness when he was a boy.
Most of secular society once adhered to what nowadays are called "holiness standards", though they just considered them "propriety" or "modesty". Not saying secular society was holy, or joined with the holiness movements of the day, but that what today people consider "strict holiness standards" were pretty much practiced by the bulk of society as a matter of common behaviour.
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  #13  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:00 PM
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Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Holiness Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
True holiness begins with being honest with ourselves. Are we truly "sinless"? Does the inclination or inherent tendency to commit sin remain? Are there sinful things that we still find alluring?

If so, ontologically speaking, sin remains in us... even if not acted upon.

__________________

Im not so sure about this. Here is why. If the temptation is sin then one can say that Jesus sinned because Jesus was temped and we know that is not the case. If we say the things Jesus was temped with was not alluring or pleasing to his flesh them one could say he was never actually tempted. but we know he was tempted in all points like we are yet without sin.
The point is that temptation alone is not sin. but When lust is conceived, it bringeth forth sin. James1:15

I sure hope people dont believe every time they are tempted that they are sinning. thats leads to a life of condemnation.
I'm not so much talking about temptation.

I'm talking about the inclination, tendency, and part of us that finds sin alluring (in the sense of being enjoyable and/or desired).

Maybe the word alluring is causing you to think temptation. I'm trying find a word that would fit. A word meaning desired, craved, enjoyable. Not just mere temptation. Something deeper.

To me, temptation is presented from the outside and it is only when presented that the interest arises. But if someone is just driving home from work and suddenly feels an alluring desire to go and sin... that is coming from within. And so, sin (as a principle relating to the fallen state) is present.

For example, if a half dressed woman approached me seductively, I would feel tempted. But I'd overcome that temptation through the desire not to sin against God, the power of the Spirit, and my knowing that I'd get shot if she's married. lol

However, if I'm just driving home from work, listening to music, and enjoying the sun... and suddenly out of nowhere the inclination or desire comes to me to stop at a strip club, that is originating from within me. That is "sin" residing within my members, my flesh. This fallen flesh has desires all of its own that arise from time to time that that must be resisted and will continue until my glorification. And so, I see that sin is present in me, though I personally desire to be holy according to the inner man (my spirit).

Maybe I'm not explaining it well.
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Last edited by Aquila; 05-16-2018 at 03:02 PM.
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  #14  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:04 PM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Holiness Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I'm not so much talking about temptation.

I'm talking about the inclination, tendency, and part of us that finds sin alluring (in the sense of being enjoyable and/or desired).

Maybe the word alluring is causing you to think temptation. I'm trying find a word that would fit. A word meaning desired, craved, enjoyable. Not just mere temptation. Something deeper.

To me, temptation is presented from the outside and it is only when presented that the interest arises. But if someone is just driving home from work and suddenly feels an alluring desire to go and sin... that is coming from within. And so, sin (as a principle relating to the fallen state) is present.

For example, if a half dressed woman approached me seductively, I would feel tempted. But I'd overcome that temptation through the desire not to sin against God, the power of the Spirit, and my knowing that I'd get shot if she's married. lol

However, if I'm just driving home from work, listening to music, and enjoying the sun... and suddenly out of nowhere the inclination or desire comes to me to stop at a strip club, that is originating from within me. That is "sin" residing within my members, my flesh. This fallen flesh has desires all of its own that arise from time to time that that must be resisted and will continue until my glorification. And so, I see that sin is present, though I personally desire to be holy according to the inner man (my spirit).

Maybe I'm not explaining it well.
Are you saying you have to follow the Spirit so you don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh?

We have to keep our flesh under subjection by not feeding it, feeding our spiritual man instead. (Romans 8)
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  #15  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:09 PM
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Re: Holiness Standards

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Maybe I'm not explaining it well.


Let the Bible explain it:
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.
(James 1:13-16)
Temptation occurs when desire entices a man to do that which is forbidden. EVERY MAN when he is tempted is drawn away by his own lust (desires). There is no "temptation from without vs temptation within". Now, if a man yields to his desires, the result is sin. Therefore, temptation is not sin, according to the Bible. Temptation is being drawn away from obedience to God by one's desires. A desire to do that which God has forbidden, or to abstain from that which God has commanded, entices a man (offers him a course of action contrary to the will of God). Sin is the result of "desire conceiving". The desire is pictured as a female, that conceives a child (sin). So what represents the "seed" that is required for a conception to take place? Obviously, the will. That is, the individual AGREES with the desire and begins to take action (ie "gets in bed" with it). This produces or conceives sin, here is where the sin lies: the will agreeing with the desire for that which is forbidden. And sin, when it is ""completed", that is to say, when the action is performed, produces death (for the wages of sin is death), it incurs the penalty.

Things are kept pretty simple when we just keep to the Bible.
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  #16  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:24 PM
LOVE JESUS LOVE JESUS is offline
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Re: Holiness Standards

We should all live righteous BUT our righteousness is as filthy rags. He is the Holy One. A lot of what we have been taught is man-made. I have never seen a scripture for short sleeves or long sleeves for that matter. Preachers didn't use to wear colored shirts - no Bible for that that I know of. I know a preacher who doesn't believe in wearing neckties as they think it is related to a woman's scarf. Some don't believe in jewelry but they wear watches. It can be confusing and debatable. We once had a pastor who didn't believe in playing soft ball on the church property. Never understood that and I have been Pentecostal since 1961.
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  #17  
Old 05-16-2018, 07:22 PM
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houston houston is offline
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Re: Holiness Standards

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Originally Posted by LOVE JESUS View Post
We should all live righteous BUT our righteousness is as filthy rags. He is the Holy One. A lot of what we have been taught is man-made. I have never seen a scripture for short sleeves or long sleeves for that matter. Preachers didn't use to wear colored shirts - no Bible for that that I know of. I know a preacher who doesn't believe in wearing neckties as they think it is related to a woman's scarf. Some don't believe in jewelry but they wear watches. It can be confusing and debatable. We once had a pastor who didn't believe in playing soft ball on the church property. Never understood that and I have been Pentecostal since 1961.
That’s not the topic.
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  #18  
Old 05-16-2018, 07:44 PM
LOVE JESUS LOVE JESUS is offline
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Re: Holiness Standards

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Originally Posted by houston View Post
That’s not the topic.
It is about standards brother and what I spoke about is considered STANDARDS.
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  #19  
Old 05-17-2018, 07:26 PM
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Re: Holiness Standards

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Originally Posted by TakingDominion View Post
I've been thinking and studying alot lately on these standards. My church is probably considered "ultra-con" by most on here, and I'd like to pick your brains regarding church history. When did our standards start being preached (and don't say in the book of Acts)? Who started the holiness movement in the UPCI? Where did it originate from?

Just to be clear, when I refer to standards I'm talking about no cut hair on women, no pants on women, no makeup, no jewelry, sleave lengths, ect ECT.

Thank you in advance.
Your fundamental question is flawed. You should not ever open your mind up to questioning anything about the church. You are to just accept and obey by faith the shepherd over you.

To question is rebellion and the bible says that rebellions is the same as witchcraft. You don't want to be a witch do you?

Standards don't have to be directly biblical as they are "fences" put there by the shepherd in your life and you are to "question not mine annointed".

So just shut up obey all the standards and be happy doing it!
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"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."

Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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