Sinless Perfection

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

During that time in which they had no sin in their life what were they if they were not perfect? If you have no sin in your life why would you not be perfect before God?

But that goes back to needing to know what sin is. No one has definitively defined it. Is failure to keep Jewish feast days or the OT Sabbath a sin? Is false doctrine relating to soul sleep or the immortal soul a sin? Is teaching false doctrine relating to Eschatology a sin? I could go on and on. Is "sin" strictly an action? Or is it an ontological reality in our nature and sinful actions just a symptom of its presence? What specifically is sin? Are cigarettes a sin? (EB already illustrated that smoking isn't a sin). Because the manner in which we define it will determine how the question is answered.

You're using the words "perfect" and "sinless" but you're not defining them. So, as I read your post, I have no idea what you're talking about. Some say one is perfect if they keep the Ten Commandments. Well, does that mean that fornication and homosexuality isn't a sin? They aren't mentioned in the Ten Commandments. Eventually, the entire Law of Moses will be drawn into the picture and we're back at square one.

What has been my experience is that men who believe in sinless perfection tend to lower the bar considerably to claim sinlessness.

[Michael The Disciple]

There's a problem with this. Everyone has a "biblical model", and still everyone's models are different. And yet each insists that their model is "the model" of all models.

So you learned nothing from Revelation 3:1-5?

So, I'm not impressed with models, interpretations, etc. I want to see application. I've never seen anyone who professed sinless perfection who was actually sinlessly perfect.

If our entire generation fails to come to perfection and does not enter the promised land will that change Gods standard?

Ask the 600 thousand Jews who left Egypt. Of that number only TWO.....yes you heard that right. Only TWO men entered the promised land!

So if I never met a man in my generation who was perfect we can still know there were Spirit baptized people who were.

Here are a few right here.

1 Thess 2:10

10Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

Paul, Silas, and Timothy lived lives that were holy, just, and blameless.

Or would you say Paul was delusional?

If there had been NO OTHERS in the New Testament Church that alone would be proof men can live without sin.

But wait! There were others!

Phil 2:12-13

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have ALWAYS OBEYED, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Paul knew an entire Church body that ALWAYS OBEYED!

So on judgement day if one used the excuse they did not know anyone who ALWAYS OBEYED would that hold water?

Can the person who may not personally know anyone who was perfect toward God as pertains to sin study to show himself approved to God and discover there WERE saints who had the same Holy Ghost as they do who by that immense power were commended by Apostles as being holy, just, and blameless as to their behavior? As being praised that they ALWAYS OBEYED God?

Such a man may find out to late the serious mistake Paul warned against.

2 Cor 10:12

12For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Remember, the teaching of Jesus is our standard.

[Amanah]

Sin:

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
21 envy,drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Matthew 5:1–7:29
if you call your brother a fool, or look at a woman/man the wrong way, it's sin.
If you retaliate, or forget to greet your enemies, it's sin.
give to the needy, don't forget to pray, don't judge, don't be anxious. whatever is not of faith is sin.

James 4:17 17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 Timothy 5:8 8Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

[Amanah]

basically avoid the sins mentioned in the bible, and if you mess up repent.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

basically avoid the sins mentioned in the bible, and if you mess up repent.

But that's not sinless perfection. Because if it were, one would have no sin to repent of.

[Amanah]

can someone give me a list of damnable heresies please?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

But that's not sinless perfection. Because if it were, one would have no sin to repent of.

as soon as I repent I'm perfect again. otherwise known as intermittent sinless perfection.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

See... you mock a brother's statement about trying to pray three times because his pastor taught him to do so... over a type-o.

And that is sinless perfection?

It seems like a rather low bar to profess sinless perfection and still treat others that way.

Are you always this ecclesiastically constipated?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

can someone give me a list of damnable heresies please?

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/search.php

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So you learned nothing from Revelation 3:1-5?



If our entire generation fails to come to perfection and does not enter the promised land will that change Gods standard?

Ask the 600 thousand Jews who left Egypt. Of that number only TWO.....yes you heard that right. Only TWO men entered the promised land!

So if I never met a man in my generation who was perfect we can still know there were Spirit baptized people who were.

Here are a few right here.

1 Thess 2:10

10Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

Paul, Silas, and Timothy lived lives that were holy, just, and blameless.

Or would you say Paul was delusional?

If there had been NO OTHERS in the New Testament Church that alone would be proof men can live without sin.

But wait! There were others!

Phil 2:12-13

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have ALWAYS OBEYED, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Paul knew an entire Church body that ALWAYS OBEYED!

So on judgement day if one used the excuse they did not know anyone who ALWAYS OBEYED would that hold water?

Can the person who may not personally know anyone who was perfect toward God as pertains to sin study to show himself approved to God and discover there WERE saints who had the same Holy Ghost as they do who by that immense power were commended by Apostles as being holy, just, and blameless as to their behavior? As being praised that they ALWAYS OBEYED God?

Such a man may find out to late the serious mistake Paul warned against.

2 Cor 10:12

12For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Remember, the teaching of Jesus is our standard.

I think you're assuming meaning. For example, blameless can mean that there is no accusation that can be leveled against one. It doesn't mean they're sinless nor perfect. Also context matters. Blameless in what? How they didn't ask for payment? How they supported their own ministry? In Revelation, to overcome is to overcome specifically what's noted, not to be able to claim sinless perfection. A good one is when Jesus said, "Go and sin no more.", to the woman caught in adultery. In context, Jesus is telling her to cease her adultery.

But some read that statement with wild eyes, like a Neanderthal who just discovered fire, and tell us in some creepy, foreboding voice, "See, if she so much as commits a single sin again, something worse will come upon her." When all Jesus meant was, "Stop committing adultery. Because if you continue, they'll eventually have you stoned."

It's really far more down to earth than many seem to think.

The Phillipians "always obeyed" what, in context? They never ceased to work their salvation out with fear and trembling. Yet, they weren't perfect. Paul admonished them to cease their grumbling so that they might be found blameless of such.

It sounds very unbalanced to me.