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  #31  
Old 09-24-2020, 01:12 PM
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Re: Praying to the Father or Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
2John.1

[9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
The doctrine of Christ is that Christ IS BOTH the Father and the Son. In Christ we have BOTH.

Isaiah 9:6-7

Quote:
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
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  #32  
Old 09-24-2020, 03:06 PM
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Re: Praying to the Father or Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Mistranslated in the modern versions, using the Granville Sharp Rule for Fools.

Correct is:

Titus 2:13 (AV)
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2 Peter 1:1 (AV)
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
It means the same thing.
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  #33  
Old 09-24-2020, 03:06 PM
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Re: Praying to the Father or Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
The doctrine of Christ is that Christ IS BOTH the Father and the Son. In Christ we have BOTH.

Isaiah 9:6-7
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  #34  
Old 09-24-2020, 10:40 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Praying to the Father or Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
It means the same thing.
In the AV texts, there is dual addressing.

God
our Saviour Jesus Christ

The mistranslation in the Granville Sharp text tries to conflate this to a simple statement that Jesus is God.
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  #35  
Old 09-25-2020, 12:23 AM
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Re: Praying to the Father or Jesus?

Tit 2:13 προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

Literally: "... the appearing of the glory of the great God and saviour of us Jesus Christ."

KJV: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
(2Pe 1:1)

Geneva: Simon Peter a seruant and an Apostle of Iesus Christ, to you which haue obteined like precious faith with vs by the righteousnesse of our God and Sauiour Iesus Christ:
(2Pe 1:1)

Bishop's Bible: Simon Peter, a seruaunt and an Apostle of Iesus Christe, to them which haue obteined lyke precious faith with vs, thorowe the ryghteousnes of our god and sauiour Iesus Christe:
(2Pe 1:1)

Coverdale's Bible" Symon Peter a seruaut and an Apostle of Iesus Christ. Vnto the which haue obtayned like faith with vs in the righteousnes that commeth of oure God, and Sauioure Iesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:1)

Tyndale: Simon Peter a seruaunt and an Apostle of Iesus Christ to them which have obtayned lyke precious fayth with vs in the rightewesnes that commeth of oure God and savioure Iesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:1)

σιμων πετρος δουλος και αποστολος ιησου χριστου τοις ισοτιμον ημιν λαχουσιν πιστιν εν δικαιοσυνη του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου.. Literally "the God of us and Saviour of us Jesus Christ".

Vulgate: Simon Petrus servus et apostolus Iesu Christi his qui coaequalem nobis sortiti sunt fidem in iustitia Dei nostri et salvatoris Iesu Christi
(2Pe 1:1)

Wycliff: Simount Petre, seruaunt and apostle of `Jhesu Crist, to hem that han take with vs the euene feith, in the riytwisnesse of oure God and sauyour Jhesu Crist,
(2Pe 1:1)

Greens' Literal: Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those equally precious with us, having obtained faith in the righteousness of our God and our Savior, Jesus Christ:
(2Pe 1:1)

Young's Literal: Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
(2Pe 1:1)

Apostolic Bible Polyglot: Simon Peter, a bondman and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the ones equally honored with us having obtained belief in righteousness of our God and deliverer Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:1)


Reina-Valera: SIMÓN Pedro, siervo y apóstol de Jesucristo , á los que habéis alcanzado fe igualmente preciosa con nosotros en la justicia de nuestro Dios y Salvador Jesucristo :
(2Pe 1:1)

Robertson: Of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ (tou theou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou). So the one article (tou) with theou and sōtēros requires precisely as with tou kuriou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou (of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ), one person, not two, in 2Pe_1:11 as in 2Pe_2:20; 2Pe_3:2, 2Pe_3:18. So in 1Pe_1:3 we have ho theos kai patēr (the God and Father), one person, not two. The grammar is uniform and inevitable (Robertson, Grammar, p. 786), as even Schmiedel (Winer-Schmiedel, Grammatik, p. 158) admits: “Grammar demands that one person be meant.” Moulton (Prol., p. 84) cites papyri examples of like usage of theos for the Roman emperors. See the same idiom in Tit_2:13.


Even Alford, who DENIES that the two ("God" and "Saviour") should be conjoined with "Jesus Christ" for theological reasons, nevertheless makes the following admission: " Undoubtedly, as in Tit_2:13, in strict grammatical propriety, both θεοῦ and σωτῆρος would be predicates of Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ. "
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  #36  
Old 09-26-2020, 12:06 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Titus 2:13 - glorious appearing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Tit 2:13 προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

Literally: "... the appearing of the glory of the great God and saviour of us Jesus Christ."

Titus 2:13 (AV-PCE)
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
"our Saviour" looks to be a far more natural way to translate the possessive pronoun.

There is the discussion of the "glorious appearing" or the questionable alternative "appearing of the glory".

Here a modern translator explains five reasons why "glorious appearing" is more sensible.

Harold Holmyard
https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/...st/039762.html

Additional verses in the epistles with the adjectival and adverbial usage of glorious.

Romans 8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption
into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
who is the image of God,
should shine unto them.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body,
that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,
according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might,
according to his glorious power,
unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

1 Timothy 1:11
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God,
which was committed to my trust.

=======================

On 2 Peter 1:1 you show that many versions, even some early, follow the Granville Sharp identity idea, which afaik was totally unknown among the early church writers. We can go into that separately.

=======================

Last edited by Steven Avery; 09-26-2020 at 12:11 AM.
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  #37  
Old 09-26-2020, 08:15 AM
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Re: Praying to the Father or Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Tit 2:13 προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

Literally: "... the appearing of the glory of the great God and saviour of us Jesus Christ."

KJV: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
(2Pe 1:1)

Geneva: Simon Peter a seruant and an Apostle of Iesus Christ, to you which haue obteined like precious faith with vs by the righteousnesse of our God and Sauiour Iesus Christ:
(2Pe 1:1)

Bishop's Bible: Simon Peter, a seruaunt and an Apostle of Iesus Christe, to them which haue obteined lyke precious faith with vs, thorowe the ryghteousnes of our god and sauiour Iesus Christe:
(2Pe 1:1)

Coverdale's Bible" Symon Peter a seruaut and an Apostle of Iesus Christ. Vnto the which haue obtayned like faith with vs in the righteousnes that commeth of oure God, and Sauioure Iesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:1)

Tyndale: Simon Peter a seruaunt and an Apostle of Iesus Christ to them which have obtayned lyke precious fayth with vs in the rightewesnes that commeth of oure God and savioure Iesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:1)

σιμων πετρος δουλος και αποστολος ιησου χριστου τοις ισοτιμον ημιν λαχουσιν πιστιν εν δικαιοσυνη του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου.. Literally "the God of us and Saviour of us Jesus Christ".

Vulgate: Simon Petrus servus et apostolus Iesu Christi his qui coaequalem nobis sortiti sunt fidem in iustitia Dei nostri et salvatoris Iesu Christi
(2Pe 1:1)

Wycliff: Simount Petre, seruaunt and apostle of `Jhesu Crist, to hem that han take with vs the euene feith, in the riytwisnesse of oure God and sauyour Jhesu Crist,
(2Pe 1:1)

Greens' Literal: Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those equally precious with us, having obtained faith in the righteousness of our God and our Savior, Jesus Christ:
(2Pe 1:1)

Young's Literal: Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
(2Pe 1:1)

Apostolic Bible Polyglot: Simon Peter, a bondman and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the ones equally honored with us having obtained belief in righteousness of our God and deliverer Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:1)


Reina-Valera: SIMÓN Pedro, siervo y apóstol de Jesucristo , á los que habéis alcanzado fe igualmente preciosa con nosotros en la justicia de nuestro Dios y Salvador Jesucristo :
(2Pe 1:1)

Robertson: Of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ (tou theou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou). So the one article (tou) with theou and sōtēros requires precisely as with tou kuriou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou (of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ), one person, not two, in 2Pe_1:11 as in 2Pe_2:20; 2Pe_3:2, 2Pe_3:18. So in 1Pe_1:3 we have ho theos kai patēr (the God and Father), one person, not two. The grammar is uniform and inevitable (Robertson, Grammar, p. 786), as even Schmiedel (Winer-Schmiedel, Grammatik, p. 158) admits: “Grammar demands that one person be meant.” Moulton (Prol., p. 84) cites papyri examples of like usage of theos for the Roman emperors. See the same idiom in Tit_2:13.


Even Alford, who DENIES that the two ("God" and "Saviour") should be conjoined with "Jesus Christ" for theological reasons, nevertheless makes the following admission: " Undoubtedly, as in Tit_2:13, in strict grammatical propriety, both θεοῦ and σωτῆρος would be predicates of Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ. "
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
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  #38  
Old 09-26-2020, 10:23 AM
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Re: Praying to the Father or Jesus?

Nice to see a good discussion going without name calling. This thread reminds me of some of the good discussioins in the good ole days at AFF.
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"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."

Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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  #39  
Old 09-26-2020, 01:36 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Praying to the Father or Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post

KJV:
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
(2Pe 1:1)

Geneva:
Simon Peter a seruant and an Apostle of Iesus Christ,
to you which haue obteined like precious faith with vs
by the righteousnesse of our God and Sauiour Iesus Christ:
(2Pe 1:1)

σιμων πετρος δουλος και αποστολος ιησου χριστου τοις ισοτιμον ημιν λαχουσιν πιστιν εν δικαιοσυνη του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου.. Literally "the God of us and Saviour of us Jesus Christ".
Note: the Beza text was different.

The quotes you give misrepresented Alford, Winer and Schmeidel. And in fact, there is nothing that grammatically impels a single 'person' interpretation.

As Ezra Abbot put it:
https://books.google.com/books?id=830FAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA4

Quote:
"grammatically, either construction is possible"
First, look at the very next verse.

2 Peter 1:2
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God,
and of Jesus our Lord,

Notice how the AV dual addressing text matches perfectly in verses 1 and 2.

From my studies, I would go further than Abbot. If a Greek writer (or English, the sytnax issues really are similar) wanted to give a "Jesus is God' verse, there are much simpler and clearer ways than hiding the idea in a subtle question of a singular article, blah blah, with a huge set of confusing special pleading rules.

The strongest such deity verse in the New Testament is likely 1 Timothy 3:16 in the pure Bible text.

The absurd 8 or so Granville Sharp retranslations (most ignominously abandoned today) of the pure AV text are all errors and mistranslations. About five were totally dumped. A sixth, Ephesians 5:5 is very clearly not an identity verse. And there are still half-hearted attempts to resusitate the phony 'rule' for the two verses here.

Apologists often like the idea, even if it is not really scripture. Generally, these apologists have been shaken in their defense of the pure Bible text, and are reluctant to declare 1 Timothy 3:16, the heavenly witnesses, Acts 20:28 and other major verses.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 09-26-2020 at 02:13 PM.
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  #40  
Old 09-26-2020, 05:53 PM
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Re: Praying to the Father or Jesus?

For the readers, Granville Sharp's Rule 1 states:

"When the copulative "kai" connects two nouns of the same case [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connection, and attributes, properties or qualities, good or ill,] if the article "ho" or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e. it denotes a farther description of the first-named person;"
The rule has been shown to refer to SINGULAR nouns, not plurals, though see below in a moment.

In other words, when you have the following sequence of words: article ("the") + singular personal-but-common noun + kai ("and") + singular personal-but-common-noun-in-the-same-case-as-noun-number1, then the second noun refers to the same person as the first noun.

Thus, "ho theos kai soteros" ("The God and Saviour") refers to one person, not two distinct persons.

Mr Sharp also stated:
"There is no exception or instance of the like mode of expression, that I know of, which necessarily requires a construction different from what is here laid down, EXCEPT the nouns be proper names, or plural in the number; in which cases there are many exceptions; though there are not wanting examples, even of plural nouns, which are expressed exactly agreeable to this rule ."
He claimed there were NO EXCEPTIONS that REQUIRED a different construction than in accordance with the grammatical rule he was proposing, UNLESS the nouns were plurals, or proper names. Further, he affirmed that even in cases with plural nouns or proper names, there were many instances that DID in fact follow the rule.

You can read Granville Sharp's book on Greek grammar here: http://www.biblefood.com/sharp.pdf

Sharp's rule has been criticised - mostly by unitarians who object to the deity of Christ, for obvious reasons - but I would suggest that if one were to claim the rule is erroneous, then one should be able to provide multiple examples from native Greek that violate the rule. I'd like to see some of those if possible.

Note, I say "multiple examples" because as anyone who studies grammar for any serious length of time knows, most if not all grammar rules have certain exceptions and unique situations where some native writers simply do not follow the grammatical rules. Like in English, a grammatical rule is "sentences do not end with prepositions". As Winston Churchill once said, "This is the type of errant pedantry up with which I will not put", demonstrating that languages do not always follow the "rules" laid down by grammarians.

Additionally, Granville Sharp formulated his rule in the late 1700s (it was published in 1798, I believe). Yet, we find numerous early translations both in English and the Latin translation that appears to have followed the rule in translating certain key disputed passages. I consider that to be strong evidence that the rule reflects proper and known translation precedent. If the rule was spun up out of whole cloth, I would not think to find examples of it in action prior to it being formulated and expressed.

Lastly, I want to say I do not find the Authorized Version to be "mistranslating" anything, Granville Sharp or no Granville Sharp. In the disputed passages I find the English clear enough. It only seems to be a problem with either moderns who have lost track of their own native English, or certain theological positions which have their own bias to uphold (such as the unitarian position which denies the deity of Christ). The "appearing of God and our Saviour" is right and proper English and does not require two separate persons, as only one appearing is in view and as the only expected appearance (theologically speaking) is that of Jesus Christ. When you combine this with the fact that the Greek word "kai" also means "even" it becomes crystal clear - "God - even our Saviour Jesus Christ". Again, I think the main problem is that in large measure modern native English speakers have lost track of proper actual English.
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Last edited by Esaias; 09-26-2020 at 05:55 PM.
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