Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

[BroMatt]

"SO: We are back to earlier point that how can Jesus/God be one and on one hand the claim that the bible reflects the word/law of God with severe penalties for specific trangressions outlined in the pages (including the elimination of entire peoples) and on the other hand claim that these actions have nothing to do with Jesus at all? I am puzzled."

You should be puzzled.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Anyone that can just explain this great mystery is lying, in my opinion. I certainly can't give you the answers that will help you NOT to be puzzled. I take what is written by faith, I believe it, though I do not profess to understand it, and I certainly can't explain it.

It is my opinion that the God that created all things can choose to eliminate whatever and whoever He created at His own will, therefore, His actions cannot ever be wrong, even when they might be misunderstood or not understood at all.

Once again, though, that does not mean that your prophet had any right to kill anyone. Your prophet did not create mankind.

Jesus said why He came...

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jesus died to allow anyone that will have it to receive abundant life. Your prophet in contrast did what Jesus said the thief does. Jesus gave His life for others, your prophet took the lives of others, certainly you can see the difference.

As you said, "All history is good to know as history not learned from is often doomed to repeat." Today's terrorists of Islam are repeating a history they did not learn the lesson of, sadly.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I do pray that you find rest for your soul.

Nice visiting with you again.

[Walks_in_islam]

My prophet established daily prayers to the God of Abraham where there was idolatry, cruelty, and paganism.

Now - we were discussing this Jesus/God thing. Your answer?

your prophet had any right to kill anyone. Your prophet did not create mankind.

OH really. Explain this:

....do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites ??

...you shall smite them, and utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them....?

Directed to people from God...

..put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."

...Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy..

...Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....

Some cool stories:

The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.
Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.
The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.
And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."
Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? testing?)
The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.
"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."
Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites
Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah
Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites
Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish
Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites
Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites
Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites
Joshua was a busy man. "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek
Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.
Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.
The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites
Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground
The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon
The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish
The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire
Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

I am tired of typing really. There is so, so much more.

Words of Jesus:

Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Sodom is a particularly nice story.

Summary: From the beginning of time my friend evil has not been tolerated by God and God has raised up many to remove evil. Who are you to judge the actions of the Prophet in his time?

[Trouvere]

Doesn't Islam believe that Jesus is coming back? Just wondering.

[kenj]

Yes they do, and they believe, as I understand it, that Christ will establish a Messianic rule at Jersusalem.
I defer to Walks in Islam for a better answer to that question.

By the way, thank you BroMatt for helping make this a more reasonable conversation.

Could we agree that Christians who kill in the name of Christ are not Christians at all, and Muslims who kill in the name of Islam are not Muslims as well?

[Walks_in_islam]

Yes we do but as you believe it will be after a bad time.........Jesus will someday return to the earth and will rule the earth.

There is definitely no relationship between an average christian and those who in history who wrongly killed in the name of christianity. It is sadly necessary to list these things, have you read them, detach what you do and what you believe and what you are taught and how you conduct yourself from them, and then your feet are inserted into my boot and the boots of a billion other Muslims who do not have anything to do with the actions of a few.

Either each and every one of you is boxed into the actions of all or not, but at the end of this discussion hopefully you will see that it is not logical to detach yourselves from the actions done in the name of your beliefs and in the next post attach me or people like me to the actions done in the name of our beliefs.

It is deeply offensive to me and fellow Muslims to be lumped in with the few when I know the sadness and sympathy that poured out within the Muslim community after 9/11. All over the world this act was condemned - even in places where we do not consider people to be our friends differences were put aside to share our grief.

It was said:

On 9/11 it was 19 Muslims that murdered many thousands, and all over the world, Muslims rejoiced in that event

There was also this all over the world (with a nice photo):

September 18, 2001: Ordinary Iranians hold candles during a vigil in Terhan to mourn the loss of life in the United States after hijackers crashed airliners into the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington DC.


I picked Tehran from a list of many because in all places going back to the Carter days why would those people be expected to have love for us?

NOW: Who do you believe are the true Muslims? Those who rejoiced or those thousands who stopped to hold a vigil for the victims?

More than 200,000 have been killed in return for 9/11. When will it be enough? How much blood is enough for the hate to stop and the healing to begin?

Originally Posted by kenj

Yes they do, and they believe, as I understand it, that Christ will establish a Messianic rule at Jersusalem.
I defer to Walks in Islam for a better answer to that question.

By the way, thank you BroMatt for helping make this a more reasonable conversation.

Could we agree that Christians who kill in the name of Christ are not Christians at all, and Muslims who kill in the name of Islam are not Muslims as well?

[BroMatt]

"Either each and every one of you is boxed into the actions of all or not, but at the end of this discussion hopefully you will see that it is not logical to detach yourselves from the actions done in the name of your beliefs and in the next post attach me or people like me to the actions done in the name of our beliefs."

That is certainly a fair statement. My apologies, I had not considered I was being unfair to you in that manner, but I cartainly was.

I think there has been too much bloodshed period, on any side, and always, it is the innocent, the young, and the poor that suffer the most. One of the promises I look forward to is the day when men shall learn war no more. Adam and Eve had two sons, and one killed the other, and have been doing so ever since.

Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I have never been a Muslim, so I really have no idea what or who a true Muslim is, however, in my opinion, any murderer, that believes as you do or as I do, are still murderers in my book. I do not advocate killing of anyone.

There are times I have felt very uncomfortable with the way we in the west express our Christianity, certainly I have seen and heard things that don't help establish that the way Christians will be known is by the love we have one for another. However, I also know that there have been times I personally have been ashamed of my own desire to be right or win an argument more than my care for another person, and whether that person has been offered access to salvation through love being shown them by me.

My point here is, I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I hope you will find that the truth is intended to set you free. However, if my converstaions with you have lacked fairness (and I do acknowledge that they did), please forgive my failure, and don't let it prevent you from searching and seeking the truth that is Jesus Christ.

I do enjoy visiting with you, and I want to thank you for taking the time to converse.

[kenj]

I'd also like to point out, if I may, to those Christians who want their religion to be respected, that they must first learn to respect the religions of others –because we are taught by Christ to treat others as we want to be treated ourselves. This is something called the "golden rule" that every Christian should have learned from childhood.

And Christians are required to do this whether or not that respect is reciprocated –though I know perfectly well that the vast majority of Muslims certainly do respect Christianity, as I believe the Koran teaches they should.

Unfortunately fear and hate sell, and there are many here in this country merchandising them in the name of Christ.

[kenj]

And also, by the way, thank you Walks in Islam for your erudition and your patience.

[BroMatt]

I have been thinking and praying about this thread, and my replys here. Though I have indeed "lumped" all Muslims into one box, and indeed violence against the innocent done in the name of Jesus or via Islam, in both cases are evil and very wrong. However...

I have pointed out several times that the prophet of Islam killed and waged war, and the excuses usually involve, "well, it was a different day and age". It was conversion by the sword.

Jesus killed no one, waged no war, and did not advocate violence. He lived in a "different age" also. He advocated conversion by grace and mercy.

When discussing the difference, the following was listed, AS THOUGH justifying the things that the prophet of Islam did.

The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.
Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.
The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.
And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."
Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? testing?)
The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.
"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."
Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites
Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah
Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites
Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish
Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites
Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites
Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites
Joshua was a busy man. "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek
Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.
Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.
The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites
Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground
The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon
The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish
The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire
Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

These things were done at God's command centuries before Jesus walked the earth. Are you saying that God told your prophet to kill and wage war?

Ultimately, in that Islam gives no true salvation, no impartation of God's Spirit, there is no chance for the "believer" to receive the strength directly from God to walk out salvation. It is a tragic merry-go-round of works and attempts to justify.

The true promises of God lead to a dramatic salvation experience that includes receiving the Holy Ghost into the believer, taking on oneself the name of Jesus Christ in baptism, and repentance that changes the very way someone lives their life.

To reach back into the "Old Testament" to attempt to make that which was old into justification and accusation of that which is new is intellectual dishonesty.

The new covenant is established on better promises, and the bible states that clearly. God who does not change did indeed offer us a better deal than the previous one.

Islam did not change, does not change, as they stress to me often in discussions. There was no salvation purchased by the blood of a saviour in the Koran, and instead there is only laws, rules, and rituals.

So, while I did indeed put all Muslims into the terrorist "box" which was unfair and I acknowledged my error and apologized. You have placed the Old Testament into the New Testament, thereby blending that which God seperated intentionally, in order to make your argument and justification on behalf of violence while at the same time finding fault that I grouped you in with the worker's of voilence in Islam's current history.

You can't have it both ways. Those that murder today in Islam's name, which I call terrorists, do so following the behaviour that the prophet whom you honor did. How can you justify the prophet murdering others and condemn those that follow his example today? Is what the prophet did evil? I contend that it was, and that he was evil, and that which he produced is also evil.

This is why it is so difficult for those that try to follow him yet desire peace and truth in their hearts to find that peace. It just doesn't add up.

[Walks_in_islam]

Computer problems. Back in business!

Originally Posted by BroMatt

"Either each and every one of you is boxed into the actions of all or not, but at the end of this discussion hopefully you will see that it is not logical to detach yourselves from the actions done in the name of your beliefs and in the next post attach me or people like me to the actions done in the name of our beliefs."

That is certainly a fair statement. My apologies, I had not considered I was being unfair to you in that manner, but I cartainly was

The point was not made in the kindest manner but though I sometimes highlight individual teachings that are said to be requirements of salvation but are not requirements in your book at all it is not in me to be intolerant of fundamental christian teachings and beliefs. It is not allowed in Islam to take issue with (4) specific schools of thought, all of whom declare that there is (1) God and no other. Yours is one.

I think there has been too much bloodshed period, on any side, and always, it is the innocent, the young, and the poor that suffer the most. One of the promises I look forward to is the day when men shall learn war no more. Adam and Eve had two sons, and one killed the other, and have been doing so ever since.

Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isaiah is one of the prophets of Islam and his words are to be respected. This is in reference to a time not yet come but Islam teaches that Jesus will return and rule the earth under peace.

I have never been a Muslim, so I really have no idea what or who a true Muslim is, however, in my opinion, any murderer, that believes as you do or as I do, are still murderers in my book. I do not advocate killing of anyone.

The basis for capital punishment comes from the Bible. I will challenge the above statement as there is nobody I know who would not cheerfully pull the trigger on the those who target the innocent.

It should be pulled and it is necessary to pull it and there is no other way to remove these people. Remember this when the answer as to what the Prophet did in his time and why he did it is provided.

There are times I have felt very uncomfortable with the way we in the west express our Christianity, certainly I have seen and heard things that don't help establish that the way Christians will be known is by the love we have one for another. However, I also know that there have been times I personally have been ashamed of my own desire to be right or win an argument more than my care for another person, and whether that person has been offered access to salvation through love being shown them by me.


I do not and never viewed this discussion as an argument. Enough has been done/said between the two sides and there is a time for that and a time for bridgebuilding. There is common ground between us. There is a community around us that we both want. There are things that we both wish not to accept in our communities. There are beliefs that we share. This can and should be built on.
My point here is, I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I hope you will find that the truth is intended to set you free. However, if my converstaions with you have lacked fairness (and I do acknowledge that they did), please forgive my failure, and don't let it prevent you from searching and seeking the truth that is Jesus Christ.

Jesus did not teach the same gospel that is taught today my friend. Nothing that is taught today looks like what Jesus taught and how he taught it. It is sad to me.

I do enjoy visiting with you, and I want to thank you for taking the time to converse.

As do I