Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old 11-15-2017, 06:43 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 29,216
Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 KJV (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The subject is the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him. This is unquestionably what "the rapture" concept is about - the return of the Lord and our being gathered together with Him.

That day is not "at hand", meaning it is NOT IMMINENT. Pre trib rapture heresy claims the rapture is an "imminent" event, meaning it could happen AT ANY TIME.

That day shall NOT COME until and except there is FIRST the "apostasy" and the rise of the "man of sin". Furthermore, the "man of sin" is to be revealed BEFORE that day of the Lord's coming and our gathering together with Him takes place.

The man of sin is DESTROYED by the COMING OF THE LORD. There is obviously one coming of the Lord being discussed in this chapter, and it includes "our gathering together with Him". Thus, the pre trib nonsense about "first the rapture, then the visible coming of the Lord" is just that - nonsense.

The pre trib rapture heresy teaches that the Lord comes, and we are gathered together with Him, BEFORE the man of sin is on the scene. Furthermore, it teaches that we are gathered together to the Lord at some event OTHER than the coming of the Lord in which the man of sin is destroyed. Both of which are in direct contradiction to the plain and unambiguous statements of the apostle.

This is apostolic doctrine, as taught by an apostle. Pre trib rapture doctrine is NOT APOSTOLIC. It is no more apostolic than trinity idolatry, easy believism, sinner's prayerism, sprinkling, confession to a priest, or kissing the pope's ring.
Even when I was a solid futurist, I didn't believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, I leaned more Pre-Wrath Rapture. However, the word "heresy" is a rather serious charge. It's my opinion that the study of prophecy is a theoretical part of eschatology. Therefore, there is room for many different beliefs, angles, interpretations, etc. Most recently the Preterist position has come under fire by various denominations and organizations. The charge of "heresy" etc. was thrown around quite a bit and some organizations decided to actually "disfellowship" individuals who held the Preterist position on account of this spirit of "heresy hunting". So, I don't charge any eschatological position as being heresy. Since the study of prophecy and our conclusions are theoretical, I will say that I believe that the Pre-Trib position is "error", but it is only an error on the theoretical side of theology.

So, that leaves me having to explain where I think the charge of "heresy" should exist. Personally, I think error in the following areas of theology are rather serious and could very well be considered heresy:
1.) Godhead. Any theological position that denies the divinity of Christ should be considered heresy.
2.) Salvation. Any theological position which denies that repentance, water baptism, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues are the full expression of New Testament conversion should be considered heresy.
3.) Church. Any position that denies that the church is the exclusive spiritual body of believers of which Christ is the head and that the church is not a building, nor is it a business, but is a living Spiritual organism wherein all believers are members in particular and have been placed in the body where it has pleased God should be considered heresy.
4.) Priesthood of all believers. Any position that denies that all believers have direct access to God through Jesus Christ and that all believers can and should hear directly from God regarding His will for their lives should be considered heresy.
5.) Tithing. Any position that "requires" tithing for salvation, painting it as a NT mandate should be considered heresy.
6.) Spiritual gifts. Any position that denies that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today should be considered heresy.
7.) Parousia. Any position denies that Christ will return bodily should be considered heresy.
8.) Grace. Any position binding a believer to OT Law of Moses should be considered heresy.
9.) The Blood. Any position that denies that the shedding of Christ's blood is God's exclusive means to provide full atonement and propitiation for sin, making the man Jesus Christ the sole mediator between God and man, should be considered heresy.
10.) Earthly Governments. Any position that denies that the church is a called out spiritual body that is not of this world nor of its politics and consists of all who are born again regardless of nation, race, gender, kindred, people, or tongue should be considered heresy.
11.) Value of life. Any position that denies that the born again Christian should strive to refrain from taking human life if at all possible should be considered heresy.
12.) Sin. Any position that denies the reality of sin and the necessity of a repentant manner of life should be considered heresy.
I believe that the above positions are definitely grounds for the charge of heresy. I also think that they are worthy of spiritual discipline and are grounds for disfellowshipping.

Last edited by Aquila; 11-15-2017 at 06:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 11-15-2017, 07:39 AM
Sean Sean is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 23,543
Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Chris, anytime Esaias is threatened with a different viewpoint, he cries "heresy" in self defense.....
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 11-15-2017, 07:43 AM
Sean Sean is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 23,543
Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Esaias in front of his PC.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 11-15-2017, 07:45 AM
Sean Sean is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 23,543
Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
The Lord comes and we are gathered to Him. Is that not "the rapture"? Or is that the 2nd Coming?

If the rapture isn't our gathering to the Lord, then where will we be raptured to? A holding cell?

Does the Lord come from heaven to get us in the rapture? Wouldn't that be the Second Coming? If its not the Second Coming is it the 5 tenths coming? If He returns to gather us to be with Him, then wouldn't your post-rapture "Second Coming" actually be the Third Coming?

Duh. YOU get it right.

The Lord's Coming AND our gathering to Him SHALL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL AFTER THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED AND DOES HIS THING. So said Paul.

No, "the taking" is not "the coming".

Get it right.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 11-15-2017, 07:45 AM
Sean Sean is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 23,543
Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

We meet him in the clouds, not on earth.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 11-15-2017, 10:49 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Happily "off the chain"


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 16,552
Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
No, "the taking" is not "the coming".

Get it right.
So, Jesus coming to gather us together isn't the Lord coming to gather us together???

ROFL!!
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 11-15-2017, 11:38 AM
Sean Sean is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 23,543
Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

We are caught up with Him in the air, then return to reign on earth WITH him.

I thought you knew that.

Oh, that's right....you think we immediately bounce back down to earth with Christ at the end of the tribulation.....what is left of us that is.....LOL
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 11-15-2017, 11:44 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Happily "off the chain"


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 16,552
Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Well, looks like there are no actual pre tribbers around here who want to defend their doctrine, or who even want to discuss the issues with pre trib doctrine. So I'm gonna conclude this thread is pretty much done.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/


Last edited by Esaias; 11-15-2017 at 11:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 11-15-2017, 11:49 AM
Sean Sean is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 23,543
Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Heresy!!!




LOL
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 11-15-2017, 04:20 PM
n david n david is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 15,203
Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Well, looks like there are no actual pre tribbers around here who want to defend their doctrine, or who even want to discuss the issues with pre trib doctrine. So I'm gonna conclude this thread is pretty much done.
I don't consider eschatology a major issue. Certainly not a salvific one. Which is why I typically don't get involved in these kind of debates.

I don't get into prophecy, the end times or eschatology because, IMO, it doesn't matter which is right. The only thing which matters is that I live holy and ready for His return, whenever that may be. Whether it's pre-trib, mid-trib/pre-wrath, mid-trib/mid-wrath, post-trib, whenever. As long as I'm living holy and ready to meet him at any time, these divisive arguments don't matter to me.

Besides, you can have eschatology correct and drop dead anytime. So forget about it, just be ready always to meet Him.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why I am Now Convinced of a Pre-Trib Rapture BrotherEastman Fellowship Hall 321 01-26-2015 01:03 PM
IHOP Teaching On Post Trib Rapture Tonight Michael The Disciple Fellowship Hall 2 04-30-2011 07:00 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by houston

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.