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  #21  
Old 11-13-2017, 08:20 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Not a single item of the wrath of God depicted on the inhabitants of the earth from chapter 6 through chapter 20 will affect the Holy Ghost filled saints.

Why? Because the Spirit filled church is not found after chapter 4 on earth.
As is usually the case with heresies, the proponents of said heresies never can point to a passage which directly teaches what they teach. No pre trib rapture proponent can point to a passage which clearly and unequivocally declares that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him will occur BEFORE the apostasy, the revealing of the man of sin, and his destruction. Not one passage.

Instead, they kerfuffle and herharrumfle from this to that to that other thing off yonder, always dancing around the actual plain statements of scripture.

Pre trib is heretical, unbiblical, non apostolic nonsense. Invented in the 1830s by a (false) prophetess named Margaret MacDonald, picked up by the Brethren movement who gave us both heresies of dispensationalism and pre trib rapturism, and popularised by Cyrus Scofield, a rascal's rascal and an undeniably fraudulent huckster.
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  #22  
Old 11-13-2017, 08:22 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Chapter 5.

The seals opened by Jesus Christ to unleash the wrath of God, while the Church is in heaven praising God already.....




Revelation 5King James Version (KJV)

5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
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  #23  
Old 11-13-2017, 08:30 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Heresy!!!


https://youtu.be/9Jj-BM5BiXE?t=3529




LOL
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  #24  
Old 11-13-2017, 08:32 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
As is usually the case with heresies, the proponents of said heresies never can point to a passage which directly teaches what they teach. No pre trib rapture proponent can point to a passage which clearly and unequivocally declares that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him will occur BEFORE the apostasy, the revealing of the man of sin, and his destruction. Not one passage.

Instead, they kerfuffle and herharrumfle from this to that to that other thing off yonder, always dancing around the actual plain statements of scripture.

Pre trib is heretical, unbiblical, non apostolic nonsense. Invented in the 1830s by a (false) prophetess named Margaret MacDonald, picked up by the Brethren movement who gave us both heresies of dispensationalism and pre trib rapturism, and popularised by Cyrus Scofield, a rascal's rascal and an undeniably fraudulent huckster.
Like I said...
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  #25  
Old 11-13-2017, 08:58 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

The rapture cult claims that there is no mention of the church on earth after Revelation ch 3, and therefore the church is in heaven after ch 3, and therefore the rapture must have taken place before ch 4 begins.

This is false.

First of all, it is false because - once again - there is NO ACTUAL TEXT STATING THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED BEFORE REVELATION CHAPTER 4 BEGINS. That is an assumption based upon a predetermined belief in the rapture doctrine. Just like trinitarian "proof texts" which are not proof texts at all, just INTERPRETATIONS which require a pre existing doctrine of trinitarianism. Nobody just reading the Bible would come away with a pre trib rapture belief. They must first hear the doctrine, THEN reinterpret the Bible to fit the doctrine.

Secondly, the church IS FOUND ON THE EARTH AFTER CHAPTER 3!

Ch 4 is the four living creatures and the 24 elders seated on thrones around the throne.

Ch 5 is the four living creatures, the 24 elders, and an innumerable host of angels, and the Lamb, in the throne room.

Ch 6 has saints who were martyred calling to be avenged. It is stated they had to rest a while longer until their FELLOWSERVANTS should be killed like they were. THIS IS PROOF THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 6.

Ch 7 has the angels about to hurt the earth, but are told to wait until the servants of God had been sealed. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 7.

Ch 7 also has an innumerable company of saints around the throne out of every nation. Who are they? According to verse 14 they are those which "came out of great tribulation." The Greek is literally "which came out of the great tribulation." In fact, the Greek is actually MORE emphatic than any English translation could be - "they which came out of the tribulation the great." THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

Ch 8 has the angel offering the incense in heaven, "with the prayers of all the saints". Saints in heaven have no need to pray, they would be in the very literal presence of God. Therefore, THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 8.

Ch 9 has the locust army from the bottomless pit being allowed to hurt ONLY those who do not have the seal of God. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS UPON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 9.

Ch 12 states explicitly that the dragon persecutes - in the earth - those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 12.

Ch 13 describes the Beast arising from the sea and making war with the saints and persecuting them. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS UPON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 13.

Ch 14 declares "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth." THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 14.

Ch 17 describes the great whore, Babylon, and chapter 18 announces her impending destruction at the hands of the Beast's horns, and a call is given to God's people to come out of Babylon to escape the judgements that are about to come upon her. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTERS 17-18.

Ch 20 describes the first resurrection, which includes those who had gotten the victory over the Beast and who had rejected his mark. THIS PROVES THERE WERE SAINTS ON THE EARTH DURING THE REIGN OF THE BEAST POWER.

So much for pre trib nonsense.
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  #26  
Old 11-13-2017, 09:04 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Just a reminder -
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 KJV (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The subject is the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him. This is unquestionably what "the rapture" concept is about - the return of the Lord and our being gathered together with Him.

That day is not "at hand", meaning it is NOT IMMINENT. Pre trib rapture heresy claims the rapture is an "imminent" event, meaning it could happen AT ANY TIME.

That day shall NOT COME until and except there is FIRST the "apostasy" and the rise of the "man of sin". Furthermore, the "man of sin" is to be revealed BEFORE that day of the Lord's coming and our gathering together with Him takes place.

The man of sin is DESTROYED by the COMING OF THE LORD. There is obviously one coming of the Lord being discussed in this chapter, and it includes "our gathering together with Him". Thus, the pre trib nonsense about "first the rapture, then the visible coming of the Lord" is just that - nonsense.

The pre trib rapture heresy teaches that the Lord comes, and we are gathered together with Him, BEFORE the man of sin is on the scene. Furthermore, it teaches that we are gathered together to the Lord at some event OTHER than the coming of the Lord in which the man of sin is destroyed. Both of which are in direct contradiction to the plain and unambiguous statements of the apostle.

This is apostolic doctrine, as taught by an apostle. Pre trib rapture doctrine is NOT APOSTOLIC. It is no more apostolic than trinity idolatry, easy believism, sinner's prayerism, sprinkling, confession to a priest, or kissing the pope's ring.
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  #27  
Old 11-13-2017, 09:57 PM
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FlamingZword FlamingZword is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Excellent keep up the good fight.
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  #28  
Old 11-13-2017, 10:14 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Yeah, keep discouraging the saints with their Saviors' wrath on them, their loved ones and neighbors.

Good job.
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  #29  
Old 11-13-2017, 10:18 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Chapter 5.....the seals opened to unleash the wrath of God on the inhabitants of the earth.


Chapter 6.....the wrath begins....




Revelation 6King James Version (KJV)

6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Esaias is saying that Jesus will be opening these seals to slay his own, Spirit filled saints and their loved ones.

He ignores the saints found in heaven chapter 5.

Beware of the heresy by those that say Jesus will terrorize His bride.
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  #30  
Old 11-13-2017, 10:26 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Post tribbers teach this is other than the saints already in heaven....




Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.....



Instead, they teach that Jesus, our savior is sicking the devil on us and our families....


Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


It is the craziest depiction of our loving Bridegroom I have ever seen, but they insist nonetheless.(Woe to the Church)
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