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  #61  
Old 12-10-2007, 11:46 AM
staysharp staysharp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encryptus View Post
The problem with arguing doctrine around the word "for". In spanish we have two words translated as "for" Por and para. It helps with exact meaning.

The "for" in the verse ... for remission of sins has TWO possibilities:

For= in order to (first definition)
For= because of (second definition)

If first then the act of baptism remits sin. If so it would be impossible to receive HG before water baptism.

If second then you are baptism, for reason of your sins being remitted.

Frankly the verse seems to be supported in the latter view.
I asked a famous UPC evangelist why God filled folks with the H.G. before baptism. He said, "they got it on loan." I'm dead serious and he was too.
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  #62  
Old 12-10-2007, 12:20 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Originally Posted by TRFrance View Post
Good grief.

One almost gets the impression that some folks have more zeal for arguing PAJC/PCI history than for winning souls to Jesus.
TR ... I may extend you the same invitation you gave me in your Mormon thread.

LOL.
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  #63  
Old 12-10-2007, 12:25 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Originally Posted by staysharp View Post
I love RevBuddy and his teachings!
I concur ... RevBuddy's dad is said to be among the best teachers in Apostolica.
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  #64  
Old 12-10-2007, 12:51 PM
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Dan and Forum,


I wanted to add this about the division that has existed from the from the first days of the new organization in the fall of 1945.

There were those on the PAJC side that were contending for unity on the outward but were trying to sway the PCI men to their strict doctrine of Acts 2:38.

I want to add this observation.

My father came into the UPCI in late 1963.

After he heard that many of his fellow New-England (MA-Conneticut) brothern in the AOG were going to New Brunswick, Canada to be Baptized in Jesus Name.

He felt that was a hypocritical position.

So he went to New Brunswick, Canada twice during the summer of "63".

My mom's mother's family was from New Brunswick.

They had moved to Boston in the early 20's to seek work.

Well my dad received the "Oneness" message was baptized in JN without telling my mom.

Then told her and she hit the roof.

She finally accepted it.

Then he went into the UPCI.

At his first General Conference in the fall of "1964".

A.T. Morgan let all of the District Superitendent's know to have my dad speak at their churches over the next year or so.

So he traveled throughout the UPCI meeting these men.

He was lifted up as this great former trinitarian minister.

Who now preached you must be baptized in the Name of Jesus.

He was then shocked that some of the men did not hold the line as strong in many of the southeast UPCI Churches.

He was confused that men in the AOG were going to Canada to be baptized and men in the UPCI did not all believe it was part of the "Grace to Glory" salvation plan.

So he found his friends and preached where the JN, Acts 2:38 was preached from the PAJC position.

His thoughts on the "Oneness" which as Dan mentions is the main doctrine that both the PCI and PAJC believed.

Did not trump their stances on Act 2:38.

These same issues were the main reason behind the failed "1938" PCI and PAJC merger talks....

I am talking "one on one" with Thomas Fudge on Tuesday 12/11/07.

I am looking forward to it...

Nathan Eckstadt
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  #65  
Old 12-10-2007, 01:03 PM
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StillStanding StillStanding is offline
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I have questioned why UPCI headquarters has refused to open historical documents to be examined and documented by academia. It seems they could open it up to a trusted "commission" that doesn't have an agenda!
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  #66  
Old 12-10-2007, 01:20 PM
HangingOut HangingOut is offline
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Piano, I think you can answer your own question. I think thier intent is probably good for the most part. They want the org to move in a unified direction and they figure guys like me that came into this 26 years ago don't need knowledge of the diversified beliefs that existed in the past as well as the the present. The solution has been to purge the fellowship, but unfotrunately tools like what we have here as well as the likes of Fudge and
Gillespie have made that a little difficult. Me personally, I have appreciated the truths that have come forth in the last few years about the history of the UPC and it have always held some reservation about the so-called absolutes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianoman View Post
I have questioned why UPCI headquarters has refused to open historical documents to be examined and documented by academia. It seems they could open it up to a trusted "commission" that doesn't have an agenda!
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  #67  
Old 12-10-2007, 02:08 PM
Dedicated Mind Dedicated Mind is offline
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Dan, there is a basic contradiction in your original post.

If there were 3-steppers in the '45 merger, then modern day 3-steppers have a right to claim a 3-stepper heritage even though the originals of '45 fellowshipped with 1-steppers.

I don't mean to be personally critical, but I think that Apostolics that are baptized at a young age (as I believe you to be) don't have the same baptismal experience as someone who has lived some years in sin and then is baptized.

I felt a definite spiritual cleansing when I was baptized in JN even after I had received the HG and was previously baptized in the titles. I felt like I had a distinct salvational experience at baptism in JN.

If you don't believe that JN baptism and receiving the HG is necessary for salvation, I don't see where your conviction for preaching Acts 2:38 comes from or what may distinguish you from charismatics.

Do you think we should all just embrace the charismatic movement?

I don't condemn charismatics but I have an Acts 2:38 conviction that I would testify to anyone that doesn't have that experience. That is my conviction.
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  #68  
Old 12-10-2007, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HangingOut View Post
Piano, I think you can answer your own question. I think thier intent is probably good for the most part. They want the org to move in a unified direction and they figure guys like me that came into this 26 years ago don't need knowledge of the diversified beliefs that existed in the past as well as the the present. The solution has been to purge the fellowship, but unfotrunately tools like what we have here as well as the likes of Fudge and
Gillespie have made that a little difficult. Me personally, I have appreciated the truths that have come forth in the last few years about the history of the UPC and it have always held some reservation about the so-called absolutes.

You should not be ashamed to show where you came from. It sounds like there is something to hide..
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  #69  
Old 12-10-2007, 02:10 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Dan,

I don't consider myself to have the Apostolic heritage as you describe. My Father's side are Catholic and my mom's side are not religious. The faith of my fathers means nothing to me unless you're referring to the early church in the book of Acts.

My Apostolic heritage is what is taught in the New Testament by the Apostles. Church history (from the time of the early church fathers until now) is interesting to read and see how doctrines came about and what reasoning people used to form those doctrines but the word of God is our basis for truth. Once you find the truth...buy it and sell it not.
Since this thread has been bumped up again I'll post what I was thinking when I first read it.

I understood Dan's point to be that many Apostolic "conservatives" today will appeal to their "heritage" in the Apostolic movement when preaching their views on not only doctrine but standards and other views. I agree that this is a hallmark of the preaching among the brethren who have labeled themselves "conservative."

Dan then points out how that the current practices and preaching of "conservative" Apostolics tends to differ quite a bit from what our pioneers practiced and he pointed out several examples.

Mizpeh (and others) have then added that "heritage" for the modern day Apostolic ought to be determined by the example of the 1ST century church as recorded in the Bible. I agree with Dan and Mizpeh on this point, though I don't think Mizpeh was intending to agree with Dan.

We should respect the good things that have been done by those who have gone on before, but we should not let their battles cause us to loose focus in today's battle. To survive as a movement, we must be willing to lay aside our man-made traditions whenever it is proven that they are not clearly taught in Scripture. We especially need to do this when our traditions become a stumbling block for others coming into the Christian faith.

The Bible is our authority, not tradition. The Bible tells of how to inherit eternal life, traditions just grow old and moldy if they are not the traditions specifically identified in Scripture.
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  #70  
Old 12-10-2007, 02:18 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HangingOut View Post
Piano, I think you can answer your own question. I think thier intent is probably good for the most part. They want the org to move in a unified direction and they figure guys like me that came into this 26 years ago don't need knowledge of the diversified beliefs that existed in the past as well as the the present. The solution has been to purge the fellowship, but unfotrunately tools like what we have here as well as the likes of Fudge and
Gillespie have made that a little difficult. Me personally, I have appreciated the truths that have come forth in the last few years about the history of the UPC and it have always held some reservation about the so-called absolutes.
They call it "progress" today.

Progress is the movement among Apostolics away from being open toward the rest of Christendom toward being increasingly intolerant and exclusive.

"Progress" is when we cease to be like our pioneers but tell everybody we're the only ones holding onto "our heritage."

"Progress" is when you can slap silly little gnats like Dan Alicea down whenever they point out the glaring contradictions in our behavior.
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