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  #261  
Old 08-08-2022, 08:43 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
I thought that post was addressed to Coksiw. Am I wrong?
Yes, you are wrong. Sorry for the confusion. I meant anyone.
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Last edited by mfblume; 08-08-2022 at 08:47 PM.
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  #262  
Old 08-08-2022, 09:13 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Yes, you are wrong. Sorry for the confusion. I meant anyone.
No. I AM right. You were responding to Coksiw.

So, my brother, you are the one who is wrong.

Please apologize, or not.
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  #263  
Old 08-08-2022, 09:48 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I was not offtrack. You do not follow through logically with your examples. You said that people who pay tithes are blessed due to their faith and God's mercy, then compared that with trinitarians who pray for the sick and see healing. You explained that it is not right for the ministry to forego working, unless I mistook you. And so when I said people gave tithes and were blessed, you responded and said it was God's mercy just as trinitarians pray for the sick and are healed, which does not condone their doctrine of trinity. You, therefore, equated trinitarian doctrine with believer's ideas to give tithes, and, in turn, equated incorrect doctrine of trinity with incorrect doctrine of tithing. The only reason that you would make such a comparison and then summarize it by saying trinitarians who pray for the sick in Jesus' name are seeing God's mercy which does not confirm their doctrine is to say that God's mercy sees people blessed who give tithes which does not confirm their belief that they should give tithes. Seeing as you believe giving tithes is wrong, then by virtue of your own use of the comparison with trinitarianism and belief in giving tithes you are saying belief in giving tithes is as wrong a trinitarianism. Seeing as people should not give tithes according to you, then your comparison implies that trinitarians should not pray for the sick. Otherwise, you should not have used that example.
You almost got it . All comparisons, when you go into close details, you will find enough differences. Comparisons have limitations. Your conclusion about my statements are incorrect. If you want to keep going with the comparison, this is a better conclusion to what I said: people should abandon tithing and just give, as Trinitarian should abandon the trinity and just worship the one true God.

Quote:
The fact is you are wrong in saying that it is God's mercy that trinitarians successfully pray for healing as it is God's mercy that tithers are blessed when they tithe. It is not God's mercy, it is honouring FAITH.
OK. I think it is both. For me, even God responding to our faith is an act of mercy and grace. I believe those that give tithing as an investment to get blessed back by God have the wrong mentality and it is close to the modern prosperity doctrine. Those that give out of love are the ones with the right attitude, whether they believe 10% is the minimum or not.

Quote:
Who said that everyone who gives tithes are giving to obedience of a minimum of 10%?
Most do, as the preacher taught them and threatened them.

[QUOTE]
I do not give tithes for that reason, as I have said many times.
[/QUOTE
Good for you

Quote:
And seeing as YOU ADMIT these people have faith, then you must stop telling them to stop giving tithes, because God sure is not telling to stop.
Well, if the have faith to the point of moving mountains, but they don't have love, they are nothing. If they give tithing and as result can't afford to do what they ought to be doing according to the Scriptures, they are doing wrong.

Quote:
Who said the 10% doctrine is right? Who said that people who give tithes are living by a 10% doctrine. If anything, they are living by the doctrine of faith that you give and and you shall be blessed. But I have been trying to tell you that and you keep missing it, again.
Nope. I said you can't state...
I'm not missing it. I have lived among tithers for over two decades.
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  #264  
Old 08-08-2022, 09:53 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
According to Paul, the Corinthians were supporting teachers in their church because they had the ways and means to do so, but had not been supporting him. According to Paul, they were accusing him of not being a true apostle because he was not being supported, as though his conscience was allegedly telling him he should not take an income from the church because he knew he was not an actually apostle. According to Paul, ministers of the word should be able to forego working if the church is able to provide support to that end.
OK. I disagree, but it is not relevant to this discussion at this point.

Quote:
No. he is contextualizing all of that chapter to HIMSELF that he was an actual apostle despite the fact that he was not being supported and refused to forego work unlike the other apostles.
Correct. We agree on that. Yet the context is the comparison with other apostles, not to "all ministry"

The only "right" to forgo work ever taught and clarified in the NT when all verses are taken into account, is to those the Apostles, which is what "preaching the Gospel" meant in the context of Jesus saying those words. If any, it can be applied to church planters, true evangelists, or what we call today missionaries.

Quote:
So, you admit the right of the apostle Paul was to take a full-supporting income which he simply chose to forego?
Absolutely!
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  #265  
Old 08-08-2022, 09:56 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

QUOTE=mfblume;1610737]According to Paul, the Corinthians were supporting teachers in their church because they had the ways and means to do so, but had not been supporting him. According to Paul, they were accusing him of not being a true apostle because he was not being supported, as though his conscience was allegedly telling him he should not take an income from the church because he knew he was not an actually apostle. According to Paul, ministers of the word should be able to forego working if the church is able to provide support to that end. [/QUOTE]

Brother Blume,

Let’s talk about exegesis concerning the quote above all in bold for your convenience. Paul never said that they were supporting teachers in their church. You said that. That is NOT exegesis, it is rather the opposite, eisegesis. Allow me to post the scripture that you claim to have exegeted this from.

[1] Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
[2] If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
[3] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[4] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[5] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[6] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[7] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[8] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[9] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
[10] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
[13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the alter are partakers with the alter?
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
[15] But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
[16] For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

So where exactly do you exegete from this passage that they were supporting local church teachers?

And while we’re here on this subject, do you Brother Blume share the tithes with ALL of the Sunday school teachers in your church? Because that seems to be what you’re saying that Paul is teaching here. So, are you sharing tithes with them . . .

ALL?

If not, this sure seems to be hypocrisy to me.

Allow me to cut and paste the definitions of exegesis and eisegesis.

Exegesis: especially : an explanation or critical interpretation of a text

Eisegesis: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas

Do you see the difference? The idea that Paul was talking about teachers in the local congregation being supported by the church is in your head. It’s not found in the text. The text is referring to apostles (sent ones).

QUOTE=mfblume;1610737]

No. he is contextualizing all of that chapter to HIMSELF that he was an actual apostle despite the fact that he was not being supported and refused to forego work unlike the other apostles.



So, you admit the right of the apostle Paul was to take a full-supporting

income

which he simply chose to forego?[/QUOTE]

You are at it again. The text doesn’t say a thing about income. That is in your head. Paul is talking about food and drink. You are thinking money. Paul is talking about apostles and you are talking about pastors. Another thing that Paul never mentions in this passage, which is the subject of this thread, is tithes. I wonder why.

Could it be because he well knows that as a Benjamite he is NOT eligible to receive tithes?

Paul is literally writing about the law here, and he doesn’t invoke the law of tithing. Odd right?

Not odd at all!! He well knows that he would be breaking the very law he is invoking if he accepted tithes.
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  #266  
Old 08-13-2022, 07:59 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
No. I AM right. You were responding to Coksiw.

So, my brother, you are the one who is wrong.

Please apologize, or not.
Are you serious? I know what I intended in my note about this. I meant for ANYONE to respond and give a verse by verse exegesis of 1 Cor 9, and show me where I erred in my presentation, why I erred and what the verse says what you think it is saying. I will NOT apologize for something I did not do, whether you think I did it or not.

I responded to the first post after my last and will move and deal with the remaining posts listed afterward where it seems some exegesis was laid out, when I get the time soon.
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  #267  
Old 08-14-2022, 09:08 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
OK. I think it is both. For me, even God responding to our faith is an act of mercy and grace.
That is not the intent you initially proposed in mentioning mercy. Mercy for being saved is mercy, plain and simple. But to say MERCY sees God overlook error and bless anyway is a different ballgame altogether. THAT is what you implied. If you did not, then you should not have used that comparison.

God is not tolerating ANYTHING when he honours the faith of a trinitarian to pray for healing. Your initial proposition of MERCVY implied toleration of error. When God saves us in MERCY, there is no tolerance for error in his action. Salvation redeems us and removes any cause for something to remain that has to be tolerated. You simply used bad comparisons.

Quote:
I believe those that give tithing as an investment to get blessed back by God have the wrong mentality and it is close to the modern prosperity doctrine. Those that give out of love are the ones with the right attitude, whether they believe 10% is the minimum or not.
Then why are you arguing with me? I told yo from the start that I and many I know give ten percent simply TO GIVE.

However, considering investment. Do you believe it is an explanation of investment for the New testament to say that when you give it will be turned to you pressed down, shaken up and running over?

Quote:
Quote:
Who said that everyone who gives tithes are giving to obedience of a minimum of 10%?
Most do, as the preacher taught them and threatened them.
And here is the whole issue that I have with you. I distinctly told you that I do not give ten percent, when I do give that amount, in obedience to a minimum. Esaias caught that right off the bat, but you and Tithesmeister did NOT.

Quote:
Quote:
I do not give tithes for that reason, as I have said many times.
Good for you
I told you that from the start but you DENIED my claim and said BUT....

Quote:
Quote:
And seeing as YOU ADMIT these people have faith, then you must stop telling them to stop giving tithes, because God sure is not telling to stop.
Well, if the have faith to the point of moving mountains, but they don't have love, they are nothing. If they give tithing and as result can't afford to do what they ought to be doing according to the Scriptures, they are doing wrong.
Are you actually saying that they are doing wrong to successfully pray in faith for the sick? That is utter nonsense. The bible is not saying that those who have great faith and can move God to do miracles should not be praying for the sick because they are wrong in tithing beliefs or trinitarian doctrine. It's like Jesus said of the pharisees... they ought to have done what they did but not leave the other undone. He did not say they should not be doing one good thing because they are wrong in other things they do. If I am missing something you are saying, then please clarify.

Quote:
Quote:
Who said the 10% doctrine is right? Who said that people who give tithes are living by a 10% doctrine. If anything, they are living by the doctrine of faith that you give and and you shall be blessed. But I have been trying to tell you that and you keep missing it, again.
Nope. I said you can't state...
I'm not missing it. I have lived among tithers for over two decades.
What does that statement even mean? You are not explaining things for us to follow you. Please rephrase. You are saying all who give tithes are not living by faith. Your own little work of living among certain people for e mere 20 years is not the world.
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  #268  
Old 08-14-2022, 09:11 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
OK. I disagree, but it is not relevant to this discussion at this point.
Then you explain what first verses' of the chapter are actually saying.
Quote:

Correct. We agree on that. Yet the context is the comparison with other apostles, not to "all ministry"

The only "right" to forgo work ever taught and clarified in the NT when all verses are taken into account, is to those the Apostles,
No! He did not say apostles when he said...

1 Corinthians 9:14
(14).. Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.


Quote:


which is what "preaching the Gospel" meant in the context of Jesus saying those words. If any, it can be applied to church planters, true evangelists, or what we call today missionaries.
Sorry, but pastors preach the gospel as well.
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  #269  
Old 08-14-2022, 09:22 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
According to Paul, the Corinthians were supporting teachers in their church because they had the ways and means to do so, but had not been supporting him. According to Paul, they were accusing him of not being a true apostle because he was not being supported, as though his conscience was allegedly telling him he should not take an income from the church because he knew he was not an actually apostle. According to Paul, ministers of the word should be able to forego working if the church is able to provide support to that end.
Brother Blume,

Let’s talk about exegesis concerning the quote above all in bold for your convenience. Paul never said that they were supporting teachers in their church. You said that. That is NOT exegesis, it is rather the opposite, eisegesis. Allow me to post the scripture that you claim to have exegeted this from.

[1] Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
[2] If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
[3] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[4] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[5] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[6] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[7] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[8] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[9] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
[10] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
[13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the alter are partakers with the alter?
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
[15] But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
[16] For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

So where exactly do you exegete from this passage that they were supporting local church teachers?
I told you in my post!

[12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

Quote:
And while we’re here on this subject, do you Brother Blume share the tithes with ALL of the Sunday school teachers in your church?
We are not a usual church congregation. We transitioned form one community to another when COVID first hit, remained online for two years and have no sunday school teachers. I planted a new church and funding was not present, so I have been OWRKING another job and when we did have sunday school, the people volunteered.

Quote:

Because that seems to be what you’re saying that Paul is teaching here. So, are you sharing tithes with them . . .

ALL?

If not, this sure seems to be hypocrisy to me.

Allow me to cut and paste the definitions of exegesis and eisegesis.
Everyone knows those definitions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post

No. he is contextualizing all of that chapter to HIMSELF that he was an actual apostle despite the fact that he was not being supported and refused to forego work unlike the other apostles.



So, you admit the right of the apostle Paul was to take a full-supporting

income

which he simply chose to forego?
You are at it again. The text doesn’t say a thing about income. That is in your head. [/quote]

Speaking about definitions, do you know what INCOME is? Evidently not. INCOME is whatever it takes to LIVE. LIVE of the gospel means getting INCOME TO LIVE of the gospel. Income is what is necessary to live. It's necessities to live by what COMES IN, hence, IN-COME.

Quote:
Paul is talking about food and drink. You are thinking money.
IN THEIR society INCOME was food and drink. In our society we cannot survive and live by those things. The form of INCOME changes according to the society we're in. You're stuck on issues that have nothing to do with the overall issue.

Quote:

Paul is talking about apostles and you are talking about pastors.
No, Paul is talking about ministers of the gospel. So, you are saying that pastors cannot be considered in the example of the ox treading the corn and not being muzzled? You are saying the ministry of apostleship in Ephesians list has SOME of he ministries allowed to trad corn and not be muzzled, while the other ministries must be muzzled when treading the corn? You see no distinction between apostles and ministers of the gospel but you do see distinction between pastors and ministers of the gospel? YOU ADD TO THE WORD.

Quote:
Another thing that Paul never mentions in this passage, which is the subject of this thread, is tithes. I wonder why.
Who cares? There you go again gnit-picking. You cannot thin of ten percent outside the word tithe, and then cannot think of tithe without thinking law.

Quote:
Could it be because he well knows that as a Benjamite he is NOT eligible to receive tithes?
Lol

Quote:

Paul is literally writing about the law here, and he doesn’t invoke the law of tithing. Odd right?

Not odd at all!! He well knows that he would be breaking the very law he is invoking if he accepted tithes.
Nonsense. You need to start saying more than TITHES... and start speaking of people who claim they will be cursed if they do not give 10%, and people who are not giving 10% due to a law.

Again, Esaias caught that in my first post. What's your problem?

Now, once again, please give a verse by verse exegesis as I did, and show me what verse I am incorrect in exegeting and why, and show why your interpretation is the correct one. You STILL have not done that.

Thanks!
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  #270  
Old 08-16-2022, 07:46 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I told you in my post!

[12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.



We are not a usual church congregation. We transitioned form one community to another when COVID first hit, remained online for two years and have no sunday school teachers. I planted a new church and funding was not present, so I have been OWRKING another job and when we did have sunday school, the people volunteered.



Everyone knows those definitions.



You are at it again. The text doesn’t say a thing about income. That is in your head.
Speaking about definitions, do you know what INCOME is? Evidently not. INCOME is whatever it takes to LIVE. LIVE of the gospel means getting INCOME TO LIVE of the gospel. Income is what is necessary to live. It's necessities to live by what COMES IN, hence, IN-COME.



IN THEIR society INCOME was food and drink. In our society we cannot survive and live by those things. The form of INCOME changes according to the society we're in. You're stuck on issues that have nothing to do with the overall issue.



No, Paul is talking about ministers of the gospel. So, you are saying that pastors cannot be considered in the example of the ox treading the corn and not being muzzled? You are saying the ministry of apostleship in Ephesians list has SOME of he ministries allowed to trad corn and not be muzzled, while the other ministries must be muzzled when treading the corn? You see no distinction between apostles and ministers of the gospel but you do see distinction between pastors and ministers of the gospel? YOU ADD TO THE WORD.



Who cares? There you go again gnit-picking. You cannot thin of ten percent outside the word tithe, and then cannot think of tithe without thinking law.



Lol



Nonsense. You need to start saying more than TITHES... and start speaking of people who claim they will be cursed if they do not give 10%, and people who are not giving 10% due to a law.

Again, Esaias caught that in my first post. What's your problem?

Now, once again, please give a verse by verse exegesis as I did, and show me what verse I am incorrect in exegeting and why, and show why your interpretation is the correct one. You STILL have not done that.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

Brother,

If income in the New Testament was food and drink, what was the money?

And another thing, do you realize that we need food and drink just as much today as they needed it in the New Testament? Try fasting for a few weeks and I believe the answer will come to you.

[6] And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

A little Bible trivia for you:
Where is this passage of scripture found?

Do you give up?

The Revelation of John. (The one in the New Testament)!! Now if their food and drink was income, what were the pennies they were using to buy their income with?

What about this one?

2Kgs.7

[1] Then Elisha said, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the LORD, To morrow about this time shall a measure of fine flour be sold for a shekel, and two measures of barley for a shekel, in the gate of Samaria.

You see? Even wasaaaay back in the Old Testament, they were buying food (which you declare to be income) with money. (Which I’m not sure what you would call).

Brother, I think you need to be taught, more than you need to be teaching.

So, what did they buy the income (which you declare to be food and drink) with?

We’re they buying income?

With income?

I’m sure your answer will be interesting. And you did NOT exegete income from the passage in Corinthians. Because it isn’t in there.

And you speak of the Sunday school teachers volunteering, but you didn’t mention the pastor volunteering. Odd.

But before Covid, did the Sunday school teachers volunteer? Or did they all receive, or at least receive an offer to share equally in the tithe?

Please give me an honest answer, instead of doing what you normally do.
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