UPC doctrinal contradiction

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Many are indeed "lame" as you noted. They make much more sweeping judgement than the AOF.

My personal favorite...to hate...is the 60 questions on the Godhead.

If they are going to post "what we believe", then just do it as an AOF statement or do it as an in depth theological argument, not lame tracts

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by OilCityCajun

Remission is not the same as forgiveness. Repentence brings forgiveness, Baptism brings cleansing, Spiritual birth brings power to remain clean.

To use the same analogy Christ used in Matthew 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26, an evil spirit was cast out and after a time returned to find the "house" swept (repented), and garnished (baptized) but empty (not filled with the Holy Ghost). That spirit went and invited 7 more spirits even more evil than himself and started a commune.

Sweeping is good to keep the "cobwebs of sin" down, but baptism washes out the spider and the Holy Ghost keeps him from returning. Therefore, all three steps are crucial to becoming and remaining saved.

Another, more direct analogy would be this: Repentance stops <insert sin of your choice>, but could leave the <vehicle of aforementioned sin> in one's house. Baptism throws the <vehicle for sin> away. The Holy Ghost gives the power to resist accessing another <vehicle>.

If this is so, why do most people who go through all three steps fall away? Why is sin so prevalent in "holiness" churches? Why are the rates of marital infidelity, teen pregnancy and divorce identical for those who have done the "Three Step" as they are for the general population of unregenerate sinners?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The AOF don't say remission happens at baptism

Actually, the manual AOF says remission comes at repentance. I like that and it has escaped the redactors for years.

See the AOF under the heading of "Repentance and Conversion."

The "one step" has been the historic position of the UPCI. Always has been. The Westbergites still haven't been able to change that.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

If this is so, why do most people who go through all three steps fall away? Why is sin so prevalent in "holiness" churches? Why are the rates of marital infidelity, teen pregnancy and divorce identical for those who have done the "Three Step" as they are for the general population of unregenerate sinners?

I wouldn't characterize sins as "prevalent" in any church "Holiness" or otherwise. But your later statement is better...why are they identical?

It bothers me that a woman can have uncut hair, do the whole ball of wax Holiness Standards as far as looks and yet be committing fornication and nobody know. But take a woman that just got sick of her split ends and trims it and all of a sudden she is a sinner.

[Praxeas]

Here is the quote from the AOF...which you can not find on the UPCI website

Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word "repentance" means a change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, transformation, etc.
Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).
Luke 24:47 says, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

[pelathais]

Repentance and Conversion

Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 2:38, Acts 11:18, Acts 17:30). ...

This from page 21 of the 1994 Manual. Emphasis mine.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Here is the quote from the AOF...which you can not find on the UPCI website

Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word "repentance" means a change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, transformation, etc.
Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).
Luke 24:47 says, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

hmm... great minds?

[Praxeas]

That's what I have been saying Pel

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

hmm... great minds?

lol..yes always. But still, why the contradiction with the stuff Bernard writes on remission?

[edjen01]

hey guys if you are gonna start a thread about every doctrinal contradiction found in the UPCI....AFF is going to need bigger servers.