Struggling with Doctrine & Faith - Page 3

Spirit&Truth · #21 03-05-2019, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Truth is unassailable. It can withstand every attack. So bang as hard as you can against it if you want, but in the end, whatever that remains standing is still truth. That's what you need to find.

This is one of my core beliefs, and something that has in a way led me to where I am now. I have been a student of the word for a long time, but I realized that in order for to actually love truth, then I must be open to being wrong, even about things that are foundational to what I believe. It's a scary path, but I believe it's a worthwhile one.

Spirit&Truth · #22 03-05-2019, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hometown guy

If you are sincerely looking for answers you have come to wrong place.

There are already some good answers here that have helped me find my footing again. Really I think I'm just in a reevaluation phase of life where I am "owning" my beliefs more than ever before. And that has meant tossing some doctrines aside, and questioning other doctrines. In reality, truth is the most important thing to me, and it will eventually win out, whether that means I've made a fool of myself or not over the years :P

Curious what your angle is though.

hometown guy · #23 03-05-2019, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth

There are already some good answers here that have helped me find my footing again. Really I think I'm just in a reevaluation phase of life where I am "owning" my beliefs more than ever before. And that has meant tossing some doctrines aside, and questioning other doctrines. In reality, truth is the most important thing to me, and it will eventually win out, whether that means I've made a fool of myself or not over the years :P

Curious what your angle is though.

My thoughts are this... if you have major doctrine differences then you should not be worried about your position in the church but you should be dealing with them like a true leader would..... You should NOT be in leadership of any kind if you are having doubts so much that you have to ask a question like this on a forum.

hometown guy · #24 03-05-2019, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Well...dont offer a critique without a solution.

Where would you recommend he go to get his questions answered?

Looks like he's gotten some good answers so far clearly grounded in scripture.

If we are so dangerous...why are YOU hanging around?

A solution is Prayer, fasting and digging into the word and not getting on a forum of a bunch of ex apostolics that claim to be apostolic.

Praxeas · #25 03-06-2019, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth

Thanks for the responses guys (or gals).

I'm with you on that Esaias, the Bible has to be the sole authority. I guess the more I have studied the Bible, it has caused me to be uneasy about a lot of the doctrines I have heard and taught personally for a long time. The conclusion I have come to is that we are often doing exactly what you mentioned-- teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

The way I see it, someone at some point started teaching, for example, that men should be clean shaven. And for that time period and cultural context, I believe it was in line with the Spirit, and a good standard to distinguish from the trends of the world at that time. But somewhere down the line, a few generations later, it becomes so strong as a tradition that we end up teaching it as a doctrine as if it is backed up by Scripture. Beards are just one example that I think most folks these days can see eye-to-eye on, but there are other doctrines that I think are this way. The sad thing is that a lot of these "standards" are GOOD THINGS that have a place in the Christian walk, and I by no means think that traditions are always bad! We just have to make a distinction between lines that we are drawing as a group, and lines that are drawn in the Word of God.

As for believing the Word of God, I'm going to get into dangerous territory and just ask the questions weighing on my mind.

Someone confronted me with this statement (paraphrased): "you refute the doctrine of the Trinity because it wasn't made "orthodox" until the Council of Nicaea, but the very canon of New Testament books you read was also codified at the Council of Nicaea." This caused me to do some searching on the subject, and I feel it's a valid question. On that same topic, the New Testament church themselves didn't have a New Testament to read from, only the Old Testament, and even then most of the church were Gentiles, who may not have been able to read or had access to the Old Testament. So what was their faith based on? And how can we really trust that the New Testament is a reliable canon of books if it was canonized at the same Council that made the Trinity an orthodox doctrine?

Please don't misunderstand, I believe in the New Testament, and I have done my best to live it too. But these points have bothered me. I'm just looking for sound answers for this stuff. This has been literally keeping me up at night and I'm tired of wrestling. I sincerely believe that truth is truth, and it can stand scrutiny. So I have been choosing to honestly assess these things and search for the truth, no matter how difficult or painful, even if it makes me wrong.

They had letters from the Apostles, copied and shared.

They also had the oral witness of Jesus from the Apostles.

A canon list existed before Nicea.

NT tithing, ie supporting ministry, is Biblical. Not necessarily an exact 10 percent. Could be more.

Facial hair was never an official standard

jediwill83 · #26 03-06-2019, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hometown guy

A solution is Prayer, fasting and digging into the word and not getting on a forum of a bunch of ex apostolics that claim to be apostolic.

Am I ex apostolic?

Lol

Ok.

According to scripture...bad company corrupts good character and if Im in sin Im supposed to be delivered unto satan so that Ill change and come to repentence.

Neither have you engaged me in ANY kind of ministry of reconciliation.

So if Im lost and in sin and not Apostolic in my beliefs....Ill ask again....what are you doing associating with us and what is your plan on winning us back to Truth?

Just gonna lob snark until we finally crawl back and shave our beards?

If you guys really believed what you said you believed youd be tearing the roads apart getting to the lost but no...people die lost on your own pews.

The last time I attended an "Apostolic" church a boy about 12 years old had been praying a bit....service had died down...I walked up and began speaking to him...after just making a simple explanation of repentence instead of trying to headlock amd noogie Jesus into his heart and just calmly leading him through a prayer of repentence he began to speak with tongues so beautifully and fluidly while church staff and members that were sooooooo worried about souls blithely walked by unconcerned...I had to start calling out,"HES SPEAKING IN TONGUES!!!!!!" and THEN after I mentioned baptism and heard the "gotta get permission" yadda yadda yadda mess

I got someone that knew the mom to call her and she gave a resounding consent...it was super cold in the baptistry so we boiled water to help it warm up ans dunked him in Jesus name.

See, I fell through the cracks sitting and growing up on an Apostolic church pew.

With all yalls vaunted discernment you couldnt see a broken abused kid addicted and bound by porn who wanted to die...that was me.

If I have had that experience in PERSON...not really putting faith in your ability to magically discern my motives and "Holiness" level through the interwebz.

Maybe you're different hometown...Id like to think maybe you'd recognize what youd see if you saw me when I needed that discenment active in my life....someone to minister to me that could look under the mask that I learned to craft from my betters while sitting on an Apostolic church pew watching those in leadership preach while wearing the same mask I wore while I sat in misery bound on a pew.

Im free now...freer than I have ever been and lemme tell ya....Im not feelin free cause I wear a beard....

Im HolyGhost filled and I walk in Holiness Ive been baptised in the only name under heaven given among men that we might be saved...that precious name of Jesus and when I baptise...its in THAT name and when I cast out demons its in THAT name and when I pray for the sick its in THAT name.

The only difference is that Im not in bondage to a building and I dont pay a temple tax and I dont suffer fools lightly when they spout off about having "truth".

Im submitted to other belivers in my life.

My wife...her dress is so modest that I feel like people look at us as Muslim...and you'd think that until she testifies boldly about being set free by the power of Jesus name from porn addiction, homosexuality, witchcraft,depression,multiple personality disorder,suicide...the list goes on....so keep on dissing those you dont know bro...just know that when you finally need someone to pray for those needs in your life....we will be here...gladly waiting to help.

Spirit&Truth · #27 03-06-2019, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

They had letters from the Apostles, copied and shared.

They also had the oral witness of Jesus from the Apostles.

A canon list existed before Nicea.

NT tithing, ie supporting ministry, is Biblical. Not necessarily an exact 10 percent. Could be more.

Facial hair was never an official standard

Typically NT "tithing" is taught as a mandatory 10 percent. In reality there is no NT "tithing" just generous freewill giving, which I am behind 100%. God wants 100% from us.

Also I'm pretty sure facial hair was an official standard until very recently. Not that I personally care. It has definitely been enforced like an official standard in a lot of places until recently.

Spirit&Truth · #28 03-06-2019, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hometown guy

My thoughts are this... if you have major doctrine differences then you should not be worried about your position in the church but you should be dealing with them like a true leader would..... You should NOT be in leadership of any kind if you are having doubts so much that you have to ask a question like this on a forum.

With all due respect, I think you are maybe misunderstanding. I believe in this wholeheartedly, but lately I have struggled with some doubts. I pray, and fast, and do the other things you have mentioned. I'm just looking for somewhere to talk this stuff through without freaking out those who are close to me and giving them a false idea that I'm backsliding or something. We all have questions, don't we? Should we step down from leadership everytime we go through a difficult season?

EDIT: I guess the only real core doctrinal thing I disagree on is tithing, but I still give to support the church, and I think for a lot of people the number will be more than 10 percent. It's just that 10 percent is an arbitrary number and I don't think we should take scripture out of context to try and force the issue.