Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:26 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 647
Re: The Timing of Corneliusí Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Brother, this post I made earlier is relevant to your point. It a different view of the "justified by faith" topic:

After looking at it a little deeper, I see that when Paul was talking about justified by Faith he was just contrasting it with the impossibility of justification by law as Esaias was saying.
Abraham justification wasnít in the context of repentance but in the context of a given promise. Likewise, we are justified by faith when we believe the gospel and demonstrate our faith by living it, as Abraham did, and Hebrew 11 testifies of others.
Authentic faith involves living it, as Paul suggests in his letters. Therefore, if you receive the gospel with Faith, which contains a promise, and your faith is authentic, and as result you live it, you will obey Acts 2:38, which makes you seek (or agree to receive) the baptism of water and the Spirit.
So basically, justified by faith just means that we appear just to God when we believe his word and demonstrate our faith by obedience. I donít think you are justified if you donít seek baptism of water and the Spirit after hearing the gospel, because authentic faith requires that you live by it.

Thoughts?
I'm sorry for the delayed reply.

The short response: I agree very much with much that you say, specifically if someone refused to seek baptism and the baptism of the Spirit that would demonstrate a lack of faith, just as if Abraham would have refused to be circumcised would have demonstrated he no longer possessed justifying faith. But Abraham was justified initially before he had done anything, just as we are.

The long response:
I agree that Paul is ultimately demonstrating the impossibility of being justified under the law. I disagree that he is just contrasting Abraham's faith to this. Heís explaining the nature of the faith that justifies. The contrast is between believing and doing. Abraham believed; the Jews of Paulís day did, or worked. Abrahamís response to the promise of God was internal, something in his mind and heart; the Jewsí response to the promise was external, thinking they could do something to make themselves righteous.

As far as Abrahamís justification not occurring in the context of repentance, Paul is dealing with the most basic nature of justifying faith: absolute trust in and acceptance of Godís promise. Paul expands on what this faith consists of, as I noted in my previous post, in Rom 10.9-10, where he says that we believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead and confess with our mouths that Jesus is our Lord. Just like Abrahamís response, an external action is not required to make it legitimate.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is not just saying something exalted about Jesus; it is committing to live for him instead of for ourselves, so it is the very essence of repentance. Repentance is not simply confessing our sins; it is turning from ourselves to Christ. Since the result of this confessing faith is being declared righteous or not guilty, then this confessing faith is indeed what brings the remission, or forgiveness, of sins. But again, the normal biblical place for this confession of faith to take place is baptism. Considering all that Paul says in Rom 4, 6, and 10 makes it clear that baptism is the expected location for this confession of faith to take place. Because this is the expected place for saving faith to be expressed, saving action is sometimes attributed to the symbol of the saving action itself.

I think we need to be careful not to import what James teaches on ongoing justification, which is characterized by the obedience of faith, into a discussion of Paulís teaching on initial justification, which is characterized by faith alone. There is an initial moment when someone is justified without works, which is what Paul focuses on, and an ongoing life of obedient faith that reveals the ongoing presence of faith, which is what James focuses on. As you rightly say, ďAuthentic faith involves living it.Ē

Abrahamís initial faith that justified him was ďcompleted by his worksĒ (James 2:22, ESV) when he later obeyed Godís commands. Abraham was not commanded to be circumcised until much later after being justified by faith. We are commanded to be baptized immediately. Either way, obedience to these commands completes our faith that justified us when we had yet done nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:27 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 647
Re: The Timing of Corneliusí Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
I believe I can agree with you. Thanks!
Hey hey! I'm glad to hear it. :-)
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:52 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 647
Re: The Timing of Corneliusí Baptism of the Holy G

For those who hold to the now traditional view that no one is saved until they have been baptized in Jesus' name and baptized with the Spirit with the sign of tongues, it would be better for them to say that no saving work at all occurs until someone has experienced both elements than to assert that different aspects of salvation occur at different points in a process.

If people would teach, for example, that baptism does not bring the remission of sins until someone has also been baptized in the Spirit, or someone has not been born of the Spirit until he has also been born of the water, this would avoid the implications that I have mentioned several times in this thread, that someone could have all their sins remitted and therefore be justified, but at that moment still be lost because he has not received the Spirit with the sign of tongues, or that someone could receive the fullness of the life-giving and transforming Spirit, but still be lost if he has not been baptized in water and therefore still has his record of sins against him.

It’s not surprising that no other groups have ever argued for a process of salvation the way apparently almost all Oneness Pentecostals do now since the teaching of a process of salvation leads to absurd implications--wildly unreasonable or illogical. Everyone else in the history of the church, as far as I know, has asserted that salvation occurs at a particular point. For Catholics, Orthodox, and Church of Christ, for example, this point is baptism. Everything experienced in salvation occurs at that point. For other Protestants this point is faith.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:06 AM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,263
Re: The Timing of Corneliusí Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
For those who hold to the now traditional view that no one is saved until they have been baptized in Jesus' name and baptized with the Spirit with the sign of tongues, it would be better for them to say that no saving work at all occurs until someone has experienced both elements than to assert that different aspects of salvation occur at different points in a process.

If people would teach, for example, that baptism does not bring the remission of sins until someone has also been baptized in the Spirit, or someone has not been born of the Spirit until he has also been born of the water, this would avoid the implications that I have mentioned several times in this thread, that someone could have all their sins remitted and therefore be justified, but at that moment still be lost because he has not received the Spirit with the sign of tongues, or that someone could receive the fullness of the life-giving and transforming Spirit, but still be lost if he has not been baptized in water and therefore still has his record of sins against him.

Itís not surprising that no other groups have ever argued for a process of salvation the way apparently almost all Oneness Pentecostals do now since the teaching of a process of salvation leads to absurd implications--wildly unreasonable or illogical. Everyone else in the history of the church, as far as I know, has asserted that salvation occurs at a particular point. For Catholics, Orthodox, and Church of Christ, for example, this point is baptism. Everything experienced in salvation occurs at that point. For other Protestants this point is faith.
Why not let the Scripture speak for itself. Jesus said we must be born again of water and the Spirit.
In Acts you find the command given to individuals to be baptized after they received the Spirit. Paul was told to go be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
As far as Oneness Pentecostals not believing like every one else, we are well aware of that, and thats quite alright.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 05-20-2019, 11:52 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 314
Re: The Timing of Corneliusí Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
For those who hold to the now traditional view that no one is saved until they have been baptized in Jesus' name and baptized with the Spirit with the sign of tongues, it would be better for them to say that no saving work at all occurs until someone has experienced both elements than to assert that different aspects of salvation occur at different points in a process.

If people would teach, for example, that baptism does not bring the remission of sins until someone has also been baptized in the Spirit, or someone has not been born of the Spirit until he has also been born of the water, this would avoid the implications that I have mentioned several times in this thread, that someone could have all their sins remitted and therefore be justified, but at that moment still be lost because he has not received the Spirit with the sign of tongues, or that someone could receive the fullness of the life-giving and transforming Spirit, but still be lost if he has not been baptized in water and therefore still has his record of sins against him.

It’s not surprising that no other groups have ever argued for a process of salvation the way apparently almost all Oneness Pentecostals do now since the teaching of a process of salvation leads to absurd implications--wildly unreasonable or illogical. Everyone else in the history of the church, as far as I know, has asserted that salvation occurs at a particular point. For Catholics, Orthodox, and Church of Christ, for example, this point is baptism. Everything experienced in salvation occurs at that point. For other Protestants this point is faith.

Martin Luther rejected the book of James. He didn't like it: "St. John' Gospel and his first Epistle, St. Paul's Epistles, especially those to the Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and St. Peter's Epistle - these are the books which show to thee Christ . . . Therefore, St. James' Epistle is a perfect straw-epistle compared with them . . ." (Basic Theology, article "The Canon")

You need to look at all the verses that talk about a topic before drawing a conclusion, otherwise you end up with the mental faith alone doctrine like Protestant do.
There are plenty of evidences in the scripture that point to you what the doctrine is. More than that may be just us overthinking it or not looking at the full picture. I feel like if we get caught up in how many milliseconds of being lost while you obey the gospel is like trying to micromanage God in how he is dealing with the specific soul and the time he gives us to live and show our obedience to the faith.
When you repented and believed He approached to you and gave you an experience. Does that mean that you are saved if you die right there? Well, He is also giving you plenty of time to show your obedience to the faith. The experience can be seen as a testimony to your spirit that you are on the right track. God loves you and he is going to deal with you the moment you believe, and humble and repent.

Quote:
Why not let the Scripture speak for itself. Jesus said we must be born again of water and the Spirit.
In Acts you find the command given to individuals to be baptized after they received the Spirit. Paul was told to go be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
As far as Oneness Pentecostals not believing like every one else, we are well aware of that, and thats quite alright.
^ That.

Last edited by coksiw; 05-20-2019 at 12:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 05-20-2019, 11:56 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 647
Re: The Timing of Corneliusí Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
Why not let the Scripture speak for itself. Jesus said we must be born again of water and the Spirit.
In Acts you find the command given to individuals to be baptized after they received the Spirit. Paul was told to go be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
As far as Oneness Pentecostals not believing like every one else, we are well aware of that, and thats quite alright.
I believe I am. I just happen to disagree with what many Pentecostals now say they mean. Of course I can say the same about their take on justification and Abraham. The obvious things that Paul says in the passages in Romans about Abrahamís justification that it occurred before he could do anything but believe is routinely reinterpreted to fit with a preconceived understanding of Acts 2:38 or John 3:5.

Oneness Pentecostals have frequently shown how there is evidence for our views in the early church writers. With Oneness for example we have pointed out that there were many early non-Trinitarians. So it is telling that we cannot point to anybody else that explicitly taught a process of salvation like most Oneness Pentecostals do today. This, combined with the illogical implications that follow from the common view about conversion, it should give us pause that perhaps those who hold this common view have not accurately let the Scriptures speak for themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 05-20-2019, 12:50 PM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,263
Re: The Timing of Corneliusí Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
I believe I am. I just happen to disagree with what many Pentecostals now say they mean. Of course I can say the same about their take on justification and Abraham. The obvious things that Paul says in the passages in Romans about Abrahamís justification that it occurred before he could do anything but believe is routinely reinterpreted to fit with a preconceived understanding of Acts 2:38 or John 3:5.

Oneness Pentecostals have frequently shown how there is evidence for our views in the early church writers. With Oneness for example we have pointed out that there were many early non-Trinitarians. So it is telling that we cannot point to anybody else that explicitly taught a process of salvation like most Oneness Pentecostals do today. This, combined with the illogical implications that follow from the common view about conversion, it should give us pause that perhaps those who hold this common view have not accurately let the Scriptures speak for themselves.
I think the scripture speaks very plainly that a person must be baptized and a person must receive the Holy Ghost. Its very simple to search out and see. There is no need to over complicate a persons salvation experience with "who's on first and what's on second". Even trinitarians during a debate with Oneness Pentecostals proclaimed it is a sin to reject baptism. Although we see the function of baptism different than they I believe the consensus is that its a part of ones salvation experience.

You may need to define what you think is illogical concerning the oneness position on conversion.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 05-20-2019, 01:12 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,052
Re: The Timing of Corneliusí Baptism of the Holy G

Where does Scripture state that the blood is strictly applied at water baptism?

I believe that the blood is at work throughout the salvation experience from the moment the Holy Spirit begins drawing to the very death and resurrected glorification of the Saint of God.

Everything God does for us and has provided for us is through the blood. From start to finish.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 05-20-2019, 01:40 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 314
Re: The Timing of Corneliusí Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
I believe I am. I just happen to disagree with what many Pentecostals now say they mean. Of course I can say the same about their take on justification and Abraham. The obvious things that Paul says in the passages in Romans about Abraham’s justification that it occurred before he could do anything but believe is routinely reinterpreted to fit with a preconceived understanding of Acts 2:38 or John 3:5.

Oneness Pentecostals have frequently shown how there is evidence for our views in the early church writers. With Oneness for example we have pointed out that there were many early non-Trinitarians. So it is telling that we cannot point to anybody else that explicitly taught a process of salvation like most Oneness Pentecostals do today. This, combined with the illogical implications that follow from the common view about conversion, it should give us pause that perhaps those who hold this common view have not accurately let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Where did that happen? in Canaan, Abraham was already there in obedience to the faith:

[Gen 12:1-5 NASB] 1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; 2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; 3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." 4 So Abram went forth as the LORD had spoken to him; and Lot went with him. Now Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. 5 Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his nephew, and all their possessions which they had accumulated, and the persons which they had acquired in Haran, and they set out for the land of Canaan; thus they came to the land of Canaan.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 05-20-2019, 01:52 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 314
Re: The Timing of Corneliusí Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antipas View Post
Where does Scripture state that the blood is strictly applied at water baptism?

I believe that the blood is at work throughout the salvation experience from the moment the Holy Spirit begins drawing to the very death and resurrected glorification of the Saint of God.

Everything God does for us and has provided for us is through the blood. From start to finish.
[Heb 9:13-14, 19, 22 NASB] 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? ... 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, ... 22 And according to the Law, [one may] almost [say,] all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

[Heb 10:22 NASB] 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled [clean] from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

[Act 22:16 NASB] 16 ... and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

[Act 2:38 NASB] 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins....

[Col 2:12-14 NASB] 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

[1Pe 3:21 NASB] 21 ...baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--...

In the OT, shedding of blood was necessary for forgiveness, and its cleansing power happened when applied by the priest. The same terms are used for Jesus Christ at the cross and at baptism in the NT.

Last edited by coksiw; 05-20-2019 at 01:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Holy Ghost Baptism an emphasis mfblume Deep Waters 9 08-05-2016 08:59 PM
Tarrying for the Holy Ghost Baptism Sam Fellowship Hall 18 05-22-2012 03:09 PM
Seeking the Baptism of the Holy Ghost Isaiah_0 Deep Waters 53 04-22-2011 09:28 PM
Why Does God Give the Baptism of the Holy Ghost? EA Fellowship Hall 95 01-08-2009 09:52 PM
HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism) Sam Fellowship Hall 5 08-14-2008 08:39 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.